Tools & Equipment for Processing Bamboo: Perspectives

[audior1]

Hi, This new non-yahoo forum is nice. Looking for info on equipment used to process bamboo after harvesting ie: delimbers, cutoff saws, dryers etc.. Particularily mechanical/automated equipment for a bamboo plantation in the planning stages.

[JamBoo]

If you don't locate those items here, I hope you'll come back to us and let us know how the search went. sounds VERY interesting.

[audior1]

We currently are in our 8th year with three mature stands which we're separating and replanting into rows for a larger operation. We produce stakes for Tree Nursery use and decorative poles for restaurant decors. Am considering other markets and end uses. We currently use manual processing but this years harvest of thousands of mature poles was more than we could do and was not labor effective. So we're looking to mechanical processing. Bound to be someone doing that in a large scale operation. So we thought we'd ask the experts here. :)

[Mark Meckes]

Audior1, Jamboo, that's great to hear what you've been up to!
Grove Management and Utilization is a very new and emerging industry in the USA. I wouldn't be surprised if there are even a few hundred people in the whole country who are involved in this aspect, and most will be artists and craftspeople, harvesting for their own raw materials.

Well, here are three of us, who have callusses on our hands from harvesting bamboo, each, I'm sure, with our own perspective on how we would go about harvesting from, maintaining, and utilizing a bamboo grove.

Something that I would like to discuss at some time is... `Portable Plant(& Bamboo) Materials Processing Equipment'
The scale of size would be for use by individuals and micro cottage industries.
(...as much as I like to clean and polish bamboo, I'd like a portable machine that can clean and polish poles for me. )

The tool and equipment manufacturing/retail industry is a very important component to bamboo, and will add significantly to the economic value of the bamboo industry as a whole.
...if everyone fired up their chainsaws ( that they bought because they thought they would need it some day ), all trees of the world could be cut down in 5 minutes!

Well, at least some tools now idle in homeowners garages may come to life with a new use - as a bamboo tool.

However, how many of us have tools in our workshop that we thought would work...but didn't do the job?

We can help to prevent this happening in our bamboo workshops by discussing specifics on tool requirements and performance, and reviewing available equipment, then maybe others won't need to make the same equipment purchasing mistakes that we (I) made!
MarkJM

[Mark Meckes]

Here's INBAR's Website
It has a Yellow Pages which includes a listing of bamboo processing machine suppliers.

http://www.inbar.int/yellowpages/

----------------------------
China Panda Bamboo Products
Beijing, China

http://www.pandabamboo.net/dinggou/product.asp?catalogID=8

Here is a website with photos of bamboo processing machines.
Many of the machines are used in the bamboo flooring industry.
One machine listed is specifically used for polishing bamboo tooth-picks!

[JamBoo]

I'd read about how some industries scour poles to remove the outside layer. Thought it might be interested to sandblast a pole or two with some fine sand or glass bead to see the effects.

[audior1]

Leaves a fibre surface that unless sealed is a dirt catcher and rough to touch. Haven't found a use for that.
Checked the sites in China, SE Asia and all the sites were related to the end product processing, none to field harvesting or cane prep. Impression I get that cheap labor in most big Bamboo producing countries negates the need for field processing equiptment. Pay your labor 5-10 cents an hour and they'll do it all by hand. No incentive for machines with economics like that. I've got a rep in Belize looking at growing there and so far he says all the Bamboo harvested is wild. A cut and burn type operation. Nobody plants or cultivates/manges Bamboo, just whack it down and sell the canes. If I can't find the stripping machine I'll invent one. Hand stripping is way to labor intensive.

[Mark Meckes]

The hand method of branch trimming that I use is ...to put the base of the pole on a saw horse and trim towards the top, rotating the pole back and forth to trim the branches, (which are on opposite sides).
I've modified my pruners considerably to enable getting a flush cut, and, during a workout, can build up a pretty rapid pace. The only problem is that it's tough on the hand muscles, and more than once I have look longingly at catalogs of pnuematic pruners used in the nursery industry.
But with the relatively small amount that I do, it's just not worth getting one, because of their expense.
So often, machines can carry an added cost of having to spend half one's life paying them off, or that the market for the goods produced offers only pennies per dollar spent, requiring a massive output in production just to make a few bucks.
The number of poles we sell, barely pays the monthly payment on the truck that we bought to help us transport them. (even though, if I was only in the business of harvesting and selling poles in the US, it would be quite profitable). We use the truck for other purposes as well, so in this way, selling poles provides an added income, helping to make it a little easier to pay our bills.
As regards a specialized processing (trimming) machine, ther's not doubt that it could be made, thouh there may only be one way to use the machine to pay it off.
If, through a reasonable investment of time and money, lots of ingenuity, mechanical abilities and improvisation, one could build the machine (and it worked), then it might paint another picture.
An additional approach is to create a value added product.
We get a much better price for our hand selected lengths and pieces of bamboo that we carefully process and grade for uses.
The saying goes..."Tomatoes are easy to grow, but not everyone who grows tomatoes are able to sell their tomatoes".
However some tomato growers have found very prosperous niches in the tomato market (`Mom's Best Tomato Chutney').

The bamboo supply industry us much the same...all types of markets out there...some extremly competitive...others are wide open with opportunities, just waiting for someone to come along and take up the challange.

MarkJM

[audior1]

We use modified angled end ( saw the mod in a Pic on the old forum and copied it) long handled pruners to trim. Tried a battery trimmer and a lot of branchs would wear it out or stall it. I'm going to look at a sawmill that trims poles for posts and look at the way their equiptment works to possibly downsize it to trim poles by feeding it into a roller and three way cutting heads.
Pretty basic machine and cheap to build. Old washer motors, molder heads and rubber feed rollers. I built a drum sander that way years ago and it lasted over 10 years till someone stole it. I have to pay 8.00 an hour for labor to trim so every hour saved pays for machines and frees that person for more skilled work.

[Mark Mortimer]

Funnily enough, I'm about to tackle 200 culms of Phyllostachtys angusta I have to clean for a order of Japanese Banner holders for a film they are filming in NZ. Each over 3m long. How I would like a culm cleaner now. Never needed one in the past due to low volume of bamboo going through my workshop.
I've often considered using a bench grinder with one of those cone attachements they use for polishing pads. I've seen a big round hard bristle brush attached to one of these, and if the culm is laid on top of it and passed over it, it might give it a good scrub. You'd need a lot of room. Maybe even two of these set up one above the other with the brushes almost touching you could do both sides at once. Just pass the culm from through the small gap between the brushes. Dunno, might work.

[audior1]

Be real carefull if using a grinder to cut/grind the branches off as if your hand slip it gonna get hurt bad. Tried that method and thought it was too dangerous for employees. Saw a guy almost lose his hand to a grinder once, he had 150+ stiches and nerve damage forever. Nasty torn dirty wound. Ren

[Mark Mortimer]

Thanks for the advice!
But I meant a bench grinder, just for cleaning.
One has to be very careful with "modified" and homemade tool. I've seen some pretty dangerous things people knock up. Not worth the risk if you're not sure

[Mark Meckes]

every hour saved pays for machines and frees that person for more skilled work
This is also why I prefer to use a bandsaw to a handsaw.
Had I never bought a bandsaw, I doubt I would ever have the capability, (or interest) in making some of the cuts that I accomplish with the bandsaw.
It's kinda embarrasing, in a way, that I can't make a hand saw perform, if not as fast, then at least as well as a bandsaw, but that's how it is for this modern day bambusero.
My hand saws, on the other hand, go with me everywhere, and do all the initial - from grove to storage - cuts, and also for general garden structural construction.
MarkJM

[audior1]

bambusero. ??? Define, never heard that title.. LOL

Hmm.. have to try the bandsaw method. Tried a sawsall but too much bounce. An air powered or hydraulic shear is another route I haven't tried yet. I use a NH skid steer with a 36" tree spade to transplant, separate and dig holes so I could use that as a power source.

[Mark Meckes]

every hour saved pays for machines and frees that person for more skilled work
Had I never bought a bandsaw, I doubt I would ever have the capability, (or interest) in making some of the cuts that I accomplish with the bandsaw.
Another perspective...
If it wasn't for the bandsaw, I would never have attempted to make a bamboo jaw harp. (I use it to make the first two longditudal cuts that form the prong)
But if I hadn't acquired some carving skills, I would never have been able to make a jaw harp that works, or had the intimate relation achieved in the process of hand carving molecular thin wafers of bamboo, till it reveals a new creation with a new life.
Carving bamboo (jaw harps) takes a lot of time...and, the way I make them... I would never be able to get even a minimum wage price for them.... Bamboo Carving Machine?
You won't hear me ask for one. Carving bamboo is a priceless vocation.
...on the other hand... I could really use a bamboo scrubbing washing polishing machine...anything to give me some `free' time to... do ... jaw harps! ...and......
MarkJM

[Mark Mortimer]

Audior 1
Bambusero: In Spanish it means "one who works with bamboo". The -sero or -ero bit is like -smith in English. So, zapatero is one who works with shoes. Carpintero is a carpenter.
So bambusero could be "bamboo smith".
Hence my web address: www.bambusero.co.nz
But I understand in the US bambusero is also applied to those who grow the stuff in commercial scale
henc

[audior1]

Thanks Mark. So now I can add a new title.... ha-ha
Learn somthing new every day.
Will try the bandsaw trimming tomorrow, maybe the table saw too. I'll keep experimenting til I can come up with a way to speed our production at this time consuming but necessary stage.

[audior1]

Well I'll drink an Egg Nog to that ! Sitting here by the stove with a ton of new snow outside I've been reflecting on how much better this forum software is to Yahoo's ad ridden shell. My hat's off to you for the change and the vehicle for a permenant Bamboo database and online Community. I'll post some pics next week of our digging/transplanting operations using a German Optimal tree spade as we move and separate three 8 year old groves into a row crop field operation. When we first planted our first grove in 1984 I never thought we'd develope a commercial operation out of it. We planted it as a screen from the neighbors, never intending to harvest it. So as the Forum grows we will too. Ren

[CaroleMeckes]

Trimming branches off poles is really one of my favorite bamboo activites!

The first section of the branch is the "strongest" part and can be made into many objects (plugs, pendants, buttons and beads just to name a few)

I take great pride in "debranching" so as not to damage this portion of the bamboo which is so often neglected.

I do not like to cut into this part with pruners or lopers, but I prefer to use an "undercut and snap" method.

I also take great care in trying not to damage (or scratch) the rest of the pole when debranching.

Don't know if a machine could be as careful.

Of course, one must consider the end results you are aiming for as in the case we are currently discussing, Audior1, you are seeking "quick quantities".

Carole

[audior1]

Well our problem is one of ever larger quantities. We harvested somthing like 2000 + canes 30-40 ft tall this year and it's been a monumental task to process it all. We grow for Nursery poles and construction uses so appearance isn't so important as getting the crop in the barn. I guess as we develope new markets and products we'll change and change again as the specs from our buyers dictate our crop and processing methods.

[Mark Meckes]

Our hats off to you for what you're doing, Ren!
It's a great pleasure if this site can be a benefit to you.
If there ever was a new era for bamboo, it is now,
and it really is a privelege to be here and be a part of it.

Mark

[toisan]

I would think the choice of processing equipment would depend on the type of bamboo you are growing and what products you hope to manufacture.

You are not going to find a harveter to go into the grove to cut and bundle culm. This may be one reason bamboo has not found favor in the West because we want to clear cut with a minimum of labor. Bamboo harvesting is done selectively with a lot of labor which is very expensive in the West. Japan has nearly solved this problem with their plastic bamboo. Good looking stuff if appearance is what you want. But comming from Japan it isn't that cheap either.

For those who want to do away with the lateral branches, you might try to find a species with a minimum of lateral branches. We found that Pseudosasa amabilis in China met this criteria. It addition to minimun of lateral branches, the nodes were recessed, there was minimum taper and it has high elasticity. It also know as tea bamboo and available only in tropical China.

Back to the question of equipment , what do you want as a product , not necessarily the end product but something you can use to fabricate a more added value, specific use product.

Hope I didn't muddle the water too much.

[audior1]

We're planting in rows not groves so mechanical cutting/felling is possible. We think this can be done with a Feller buncher used in row Pine Forests here in Va. We do need a solution to cutting off the branches quickly as that seems to be a big time user as we prepare the canes for sale. We supply canes for Nursery use, furniture, and decorative purposes. We cut thousands of Canes this fall and are still processing. As we get into the tens of thousands we need to automate as much as we can to compete against the cheap Asian labor. Open to suggestions.

[toisan]

Okay , you are planting in rows which make it easy to harvest mechanically but are you ignoring the selectivity factor ?

If all you are doing is selling pole, I can get you a container of good looking poles cheaper than what it cost to grow and harvest them. On the other hand the cost of freight will have to be factored in as well. But I think it something to consider. Let me know if you are interested. Just give me your specifications. Remember it has to be a container load.

If we are to grow bamboo, then we must think of an end use that the Chinese haven't thought of. I don't mean to discourage you because the more bamboo utilization we see in America the more ideas will be developed for its use that the Chinese haven't thought of.

Hope you have a joyous Holiday Season.


toisan

[audior1]

A tree feller is a hydraulic arm with a saw mounted on a skid steer that the operator can selectively choose the Tree/Cane he wants to cut.
Our problem is exactly that we have to produce Bamboo products cheaper. We currently pay .10-15 each for 5-6' 1/2"-1" poles in quantities of 1000 or more to use as staking poles on our tree farm. We get them from a importer who buy's them in containers from China.

How much do the sources you have charge for the wood and plastic poles?

We started raising our own to have a choice of poles and the broaden our producr line. We're exploring markets trying to find niches that the Chinese cannot supply easily.
Branch removal is a major slowdown in our processing. We use Chop saws for length gauging which goes fast. We air dry in a shed.

[Mark Meckes]

Paul, you mentioned a very important issue with bamboo, and this is to think of and develop it as a value-added product, which is be done by way of grading, selection, and and further processing and manufacturing, though finding markets and selling the goods is another story.

Nursery (tree stakes), and floristry stakes probably generates the highest volume of sales and economic value for bamboo in the US, and it's good to hear, Ren, that some of it is now domestically grown.
This is a tough market to compete in.

Bamboo artisans can also have differing reasons for choosing a certain tool, or process to work bamboo with, and it often comes down to ...plain personal preference.
For example, my personal preference is to not use power tools when harvesting, because I enjoy the experiences and sites and sounds while working. The sound of the handsaw, and the clippers becomes part of the music of the grove, rather then the dominating presence of a noisey machine ... Bamboo is a very vocal creature to harvest from and work with!, if you can hear it, or feel the `presence of mind' to listen.
It isn't always this ideal.

(psst...I am thinking of buying a rechargable reciprocal saw to harvest bamboo that is over 4" diameter..any suggestions on the best model to get? (..reply to this Thread) (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=113)

Carole and I each have our own preferred tools and methods of preparing and processing bamboo, some very similar, others quite different.

We like that it brings out our individuality, and like to see `other ways' that something could also be done.
Mark

[Mark Meckes]

Here's another viewpoint of processes and tools as seen in papermaking...
Imagine a mill that can produce thousands of tons of bamboo paper a day (yuck),

Eventually more smallscale `farms' may grow and produce a fewer tons of `specialty' pulp at a time.

At the other extreme, there's hand-made bamboo paper - a few pounds at a time.

It takes a lot of effort to process bamboo to the stage of being ready for papermaking.

Paper pulp that is handbeaten after cooking is the strongest form of paper, because of the way the fibers are separated.

This justifies the time and effort it takes to prepare.

... though I sure would like to get hold of a bargain priced Hollander Beater!

MarkJM

[audior1]

Mark,
I sure can appreciate the feeling of working the grove with hand tools as well as working canes into a value added creation. I feel the same way when I'm working in our bamboo groves thinning and selective cutting. I also love to walk the rows of our regular tree farm thinning with hand shears as I size up each tree. I talk to the tree as I reshape it. As we have gotten larger in operations to meet modern living/business costs we've had to mechanize to stay competitive and stay in business. 25 years ago I hand dug each tree which sometimes took many hours. Today I use a German Optimal Tree spade and dig a tree perfectly in 30 secs. . We now can dig and ball 40-60 trees an hour. We're experimenting with our Bamboo operation to see if we can make it a profitable line or just sell the plant as another type of tree. We can't compete in the Nursery stake industry, which is huge, unless we can beat the Asian prices. Since we can't hire .15 cent an hour employees we have to substitute hydraulics for muscle power. Nor even sure that it can be done here economically. So the search for better tools and methods and experimentation with marketing.
I'm open to all suggestions or comments as we learn together! Merry Christmas,
Ren

[toisan]

Ren,

If you think you can use a 20 ft container of poles, please give me your specifications and the port of entry. It may be worth your time to import poles and save the one that you are growing for new product development projects.

In the meantime check on other uses for bamboo. See what has been made using wood and then visualize it in bamboo. I am in product development stage for bamboo wall panel. When we go back to China in May, we will report on the progress of that. Check out Goldberg's new book, BAMBOO STYLE. It has many photos of bamboo moving upscale into homes instead of remaining only as an ornamental in gardens and pots.

This has been somewhat a problem in that ABS address many of the horticultural issues but often the arts & crafting end is neglected. That being said accolades to Mark and Carol for their efforts to change this.


toisan