bambusoides flowering?

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Folks:

Since I intend to put in an extensive planting of P. bambusoides next week, as much as an acre, I'm wondering if anyone has any long-term experience with this plant in the SE area (I'm in Tennessee). I believe that this plant was gathered about 30 years ago at the US station in Georgia (is that it, I'm new to this area?). My fear is that I could possibly lose a small fortune and a lot of peace of mind via total loss of my little bit of Eden due to flowering. Does this plant crash and burn? Does anyone have a clue as to what biological clock this plant may be ticking on? It grows well over 50' tall here near Nashville, large culms, and I think the grower told me that some of his culms--after 10 years--have reached 65', taller than I would have expected. But, just looking at them, I'd say that he's being truthful.

Best,

Mischa Z

[ShmuBamboo]

Do not fear. Phyllostachys bambusoides (Giant Japanese Timber bamboo) last bloomed in the late 1960s. This bamboo is one of the most consistant to bloom, worldwide. It blooms pretty regularly on a 110-120 year cycle. So the next blooming cycle for these guys will be about 2080. Only 73 more years to grow!

And yes, after flowering, this species croaks.

[Mischa Z]

Thank you so much, that is quite a relief! Should, however, any others of you have any reason to believe that there might be a different batch on an entirely different time cycle, please let me know, or even those who might want to suggest that I mix in a few various "just in case" species, please let me know as well.

I know that the Castillon cultivar died out some years ago, and I'm thinking about ordering one of the present cultivars now being marketed. Do the new ones have the same vivid intensity as the old bambusoides cultivar of Castillon, or are they generally faded compared to the plants of yesteryear? I've seen some terrific "Castillon inversa" plants, so I thought I'd plant them together, but I did not get a good look at that nursery's regular Castillon at the same time, and I must order by mail. I bought one "Castillon" last year, and I'm almost certain that it is really P. aureosulcata, so perhaps the buyer should be wary with some nurserys!

Thanks again,

Mischa Z

[sasa fool]

I'm very surprised to hear that Phy. bambusoides does so well in the Nashville area, I know that near Birmingham AL where temps seldom go much below 15F it windburns easily and is slow to size up and I would have thought that the occasional single digits of Nashville would have kept the size down. At my friends place near Summertown it is not nearly that large so yours friends is exceptional, I think. Is there any chance that it may be Phy. vivax? These two species are sometimes confused and the Vivax would indeed achieve the size you mentioned in Nashville.

Out of cold temperature concerns, not flowering, I would be very concerned about investing in Bambusoides in your area, even if you have seen some big stuff, I would not count on it, that particular grove sounds exceptional. I did not see what you were hoping to achieve with bamboo but Henon, Vivax, Dulcis, Atrovaginata, Nuda, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata, and others would all be safer investments and I suspect that at least one of them will achieve what you are looking for.

[Mischa Z]

Thanks:

I've had others express surprise about how well that particular grove of "P. bambusoides" is growing here near Nashville, and in keeping with the fact that the "Castillon" I bought there seems suspiciously like P. aureosulcata, there might be some truth in the "vivax" possibility. From a practical standpoint, this grove and wholesaler is only about 15 miles from where I live, so I'm inclined to think that it certainly ought to work for me as well. One warning flag I get, that I'm just now remembering from last Spring, is the fact that the dealer told me that this plant, whether bambusoides or vivax, supposedly can shoot too early on south-facing slopes, which is exactly the type of terraced, approximately one-acre fields I have between my house up on the hill and the farm road down below me.

Does this spark any further thoughts with you, Sasa Fool? I'm down to a week or so before planting, and you've already got me thinking that I'd do well to see if this dealer has vivax in his inventory as a mix-in option, just to feel the situation out. I do love Henon as well, those are very striking plants, and I'm glad to hear that they perform well in the Nashville area. Bory has long been one of my very favorite plants as well, does this perform well near Nashville? I put in one 5-gallon plant on the edge of my front yard a few months ago, but I have not checked into the local performance expectations. I'm just curious about my particular spot on the planet. I'll doubtless put in a single Moso cultivar as well, just to see what might happen on these south-facing former cotton fields. Here I go, getting wrapped up in myriads of species, when my real desire is a tall, stately forest! I can't help but wish I was just a bit further south, into the land of Maximum Moso...

Thanks,

Mischa Z

[sasa fool]

Personally, I'd be very surprised if it is Bambusoides and I believe that Vivax also shoots much earlier - another reason to suspect it, so if you have any reasons to question the ID, I would really avoid spending money on Bambusoides. Although it can reach impressive sizes, Vivax culms are very thin walled and snap in wind, snow, ice and often just plain split open, so it may not be what you are looking for if you want good wood.

Bory is basically a splotchy form of Henon and should perform as well. If you are mainly looking for a massive bamboo look, Atrovaginata should exceed 2 inches and 35 feet for you; Dulcis will approach 3 inches and 35 feet; Henon will be slightly larger; Nuda does not like windy sites but will exceed 2 inches and 30 feet; Aureosulcata & Rubro will probably reach 40 feet by 2 inches for you - I'm basing these guesstimates on groves I know in the Summertown area. Their large Henon is perhaps the prettiest bamboo grove I've ever seen but I really like the 'strong' look of Atrovaginata & Dulcis.

[ShmuBamboo]

Castillon is easy to ID. It has a smooth yellow culm, green sulcus and randomly variegated leaves. Now that being said, some books I have say that the Castillon that I have is the super variegated (and weaker) type. But as far as I know, all Castillons have some leaves with stripes. If it is any of the Phy. aureosulcatas, it will have a rough feel to the culm when you slide your hand upward, like fine sandpaper. I there are no variegated leaves, and no rough culms, then it may be Phy. vivax Aureocaulis. On that one however, the stripes will be rather thin and random on the culms, unlike Phy. bam. Castillon or Phy. aureo. Spectabilis which have regular green stripes that are on the sulcus.

Hope this helps.

[Mischa Z]

This forum has already been very, very helpful, THANK YOU!

Since planting day is only a week away now, perhaps someone can tell me how to quickly tell vivax from bambusoides? This is clearly the crises of the day for me!

The grove here does not have any split or broken culms, at least, but who knows for sure why that is? The harvested culms actually look pretty heavy to my admittedly unpractised eyes, but, again, POSITIVELY identifying this timber bamboo ASAP is critical to me right now. I sure hope that there is a reliable set of guidelines that don't take a botanist's skills!

All my best,

Mischa Z

[ShmuBamboo]

Sorry, but that is wishful thinking. This forum collectively knows more than most, but there is no easy a way to tell for sure, regardless of your emergency situation. The only real way to tell for certain is when the bamboo shoots, and that is usually in spring for many Phyllostachys types. All the keys for genus Phyllostachys that I have are based on new adult form shoots. Also you have to look closely and figure out certain details of the bamboo structure, and this is not that easy, even for an expert. It takes some botanical skill. Almost every bamboo nursery I have visited has had at least one bamboo that they have yet to ID correctly. More typically they have several that they cannot ID. I have also bought many that were mis-marked or incorrectly ID'd. They thought they were one type and I knew that they were another, or I still do not know what they are. I still have 3 types here in my collection to ID.

Phy. bambusoides and vivax are very similar and it would take someone with a lot of experience to tell the difference. I have posted the main differences that I know of other than looking at new shoots. If you look on this forum, you will see a lot of debates as to what bamboos are or should be. Now, if you can post some photos of the plant or grove, and some closeups of the structures, like culms, leaves, sulsus, etc. you may be agle to get lucky and one of us might be able to tell you what it is. Mark is pretty good at that and he has ID'd several of my bamboos here. But not all of them... there is just really no surefire way to tell because bamboo so rarely flower, and flowers are a main structure in plants to classify them with. And personally? I would not plant a bamboo grove on that scale with that kind of iffy species information. There are other issues as well, like mite infestations and diseases that can be detrimental to bamboo plantations. You can make a lot of mistakes early on that you may regret later.

My 2 cents worth...

[Mischa Z]

Very sage advice, ShmuBamboo, I'll have them mix in Bory, Henon, whatever they have that will qualify as a "timber bamboo."

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mischa Z

[sasa fool]

Mischa Z, if the 'Bambusoides' has definitely come as divisions from the large grove in your area, then regardless of the proper ID it sounds like this bamboo does well in your area and that you like it. But if the plants are not coming from that grove then no way would I plant Bambusoides from any other source in your area - it may be ID'd properly and be a perpetual, perennial runt.

I would also be careful buying Henon, Bory, or anything else from the folks who ID'd that grove as Bambusiodes, you would have cause to want to verify the ID on other species as well. I'm not trying to flame anyone but it is very easy to have mis-ID'd bamboo and not know it. It sounds like you are making a significant investment and you should be careful to ensure that you are getting the appropriate species for your area.

Vivax & Bambusoides are so difficult to tell apart, sometimes even with the shoots unless you are really good on the suttle differences. Shmu's advice is very right on.

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Folks:

After all the wonderful feedback from this forum, I went back to the local nursery last weekend armed with a great deal more knowledge. It would seem that the pedigree of the plants at this nursery should be pretty reliable, as the documentation #s from the US Groves in Georgia and elsewhere have been collected with the specimens themselves over the past 30 years or so. So, I should be able to expect P. bambusoides to be just that rather than vivax, and to even expect the "dubious" Castillon I picked up last spring to be just a sun-washed specimen rather than an aureasulcata, for the nurseryman indeed had both varieties in his groves. I'm glad I spent this time double-checking with him as well, for I got a lot better idea of how his many plants have been performing over many years in this area. I decided to mix in a bit of the beautiful "Robert Young" at the grove's entrance, and moved toward fast-responding, cheaper bamboos for areas in my too-spacious lawn that are too hilly for safe mowing now--or for out-of-the way areas that just need a "blend" rather than a full--therefore expensive--treatment with a larger timber bamboo. In all this, your advice has really helped a lot, so thank you!

Best,

Mischa Z

[ShmuBamboo]

Phy. viridis Robert Young is a nice bamboo. In larger forms it can have some amazing stridations in the culms. One specimen that I saw (I know, should have had camera) had 3 large culms a foot apart and one was half yellow and half green, the next was 1/4 striped yellow and green, and the last one had green with yellow streaks. If you get a good one, these can be quite impressive. However, they tend to grow really slow here in the west for some reason. I still want one though.

[Mischa Z]

Thanks for the feedback. Robert Young must do quite a bit better in Tennessee, for the mother grove is tall and beautiful, with the type of development that you so admired. I am putting in 4 fairly large plants, lots of roots, for the front "door" into my grove. I also picked up a lovely magnolia, and I'm lusting after a Japanese Black Pine. I really like the unshaped trees, want to put one by a small pond I have out back.

I keep looking at the "Temple Bamboo" as a possible grove edge. The local grove is so well kept at the edge, or maybe they just grow neatly. Any feedback on this point?

All my best,

Mischa Z

[ShmuBamboo]

Temple bamboo (AKA: Noble, Nahira, Nahiria, Narihira) is Semi. fastuosa, and is a good bamboo type. I have several growing here. They are fast growers, and grow tall and slender. They are aggressive though, and will put out a lot of runners. Mine have grown right out of 15 gallon pots and into the ground on several occasions. Those runners in turn tend to also wind up as tall and slender clumps. I have seen them in several settings, and some make reasonable informal hedges and/or screening plants. They have a nice large grove of them at the Hakone Gardens in Saratoga. I am not sure what effect you want with them, but at Hakone they used them at the edge of a walkway on one side, and at the side of a lawn on the other.

[Mischa Z]

Thanks, Shmu:

The "along a walkway" use of Temple Bamboo has utility for me, as long as I would not have to spend a great deal of time fighting the "clumping" tendancy. Next year, I hope to lay the foundation for a Meeting/Performance pavalion in the grove area--open to the sides, with an Oriental look to the roof. Perhaps leaving all sides open to bambusoides would be best--perhaps using a solid screening of Temple Bamboo along one or two sides would really enhance things. I just can't tell as yet, for this is going to have to be an "organic" growth process, hopefully one that will keep me enamoured until my dying day (when I suspect the tea house will become more of a priority).

I'm finding some traditional tea house plans on the Net. If anyone knows of some great wealth of information on constructing a rustic teahouse, please share!

Best,

Mischa Z