Mystery Bamboo #1... clumping P. aurea?

[ghmerrill]

I found this plant in 1995 as a coconut size "clump", discarded along with truckloads of stumps, and other yard project waste. I put it in a bonsai pot for a couple of years, then planted it into the ground in an area with full sun. It stayed there for the next 7 years, untill we moved in 2004, when I dug it up, and transplanted it to the current location. the old location was in full sun all day, received ample water. The plant never put out rhizomes, and got about 12' tall. The new location is about 2/3 day sun, the plant shoots like crazy in the early summer, still without putting out leptomoroph rhizome, receives good water, etc. Looking at a couple of the culms, they are a bit wonky, like Aurea, however, the growth of this plant is very dense, and the soil is pretty good where it is at.
Any ideas of possibly a cultivar that it could be, or other species?

Thanks,

Gene

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/medium/full-view-2.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4518&cat=503&ppuser=2587) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4518&cat=503&size=big&ppuser=2587)

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/medium/base-view.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4519&cat=503&ppuser=2587) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4519&size=big&cat=503&ppuser=2587)

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Gene,
Very interesting!
It certainly has every indication of it being a Phyllostachys aurea but this is strange indeed that it has "stayed put".
My only thoughts are that you have trained it well, like a young pup, when you first introduced it to bonsai culture. ;)
I can see in the photo at the left of the base of the clump that there are some rhizome sections that have attempted to climb out of the dense thicket and curve downward.
It will be interesting to see if any will revert back to the normal mode of extending their rhizomes.

Cheers
Mark

[ghmerrill]

I was looking at the book "taming the dragon" about the temperate bamboos, and saw a photo in there of the Phyllostachys mannii, and it looks exactly like my mystery plant. Any thoughts? it says it is a very slow growing runner, forming a clump that spreads around 2.5' in 10 years. that certanly describes the growth habbit of this plant. there are still those two odd culms in there though....can P. mannii or any other Phyllostachys develop that odd shortened internode due to damage, or some other issue?

thougth I would see if anyone here had seen a P. mannii, and had any thoughts.

Gene

[sasa fool]

Gene, I think that in the US we must ignore the bamboo spread 'ratings' given by UK growers/authors. Their maritime cooler summers vastly limit the spread and are not good indicators of performance in many parts of the US, I suspect that the PNW may be closer to the UK in that regard than a continental climate such as mine. I also find it interesting in the book you referenced that the author states that his bamboo runs more in dry soil as it seeks out moisture. In my area bamboo in dry soil tends to sit still while the damper areas run much more quickly with the added moisture.

Your bamboo look like Phy. aurea in every way, the clumping habit is interesting but could be due to a number of factors.

[ghmerrill]

I agree on the PNW climate being like UK climate- a friend who lives near the Oregon coast had Sasa vetchii growing 10' to 12' next to his house- pretty cool. In my area it stays in the order of 3 to maybe 4', eve if well watered and shaded.

I potted some of the "mystery plant", so will have to see how it grows, and that will show rhizome better too, in the future. who knows! I love it when I get a chance to "scrounge" a new plant, but sometimes the ID is a nightmare. One of the plants I got from the same friend I talked about above, was supposed to by P. nigra 'bory', and turned out to be Pl. gramineus...... guess even when someone tells you what it is, it may not be!

[voodoolord]

Well I would have to say after carefull observation, checking my notes, more carefull observation, licking my finger and checking the wind, more carefull notes, having lunch, comparing the climate changes in the last one hundred years between here and the UK, more carefull notes, throwing some Conure bones on the fire and reading the impressions I deduce that you have an Aurea on your hands. Thats just my professional opinion though :p

[Mark Meckes]

Interesting.
This topic reminds me of a book I have, written by Roger Grounds of the UK:
Ornamentals Grasses - (1989) ISBN 0-7470-1219-9 - Paston Press
In addition to grasses, there are sections on Cat-tails (Typha), Rushes (Juncus ; Luzula), Sedges (Carex ; Cyperus etc) and the Bamboos ...

For the genus Phyllostachys, rhizomes are described as monopodial (running).
However in many of the individual [Phyllostachys[/i] species listings, rhizome habit is described as sympodial (clumping) :confused: ...
"Rhizome sympodial forming a large, diffuse, thicket-like clump"

I also find it interesting in the book you referenced ("Hardy Bamboo - Taming the dragon"), that the author states that his bamboo runs more in dry soil as it seeks out moisture.

My only reasoning for this is if the bamboo is growing in chalky or clayey soil, during dry seasons cracks can form in the soil and if a rhizome finds a crack, and the plant is subsequently watered,it might high-tail it through the newly opened expressway to new areas where the bamboo has never travelled before.

Overall I would be inclined to think that dry conditions help to make a running bamboo "stay put".
However if the rainy season arrives during a time when the rhizomes are in "growth mode", which can occur here in Texas in the autumn after a long hot and dry summer, the rhizomes will creep forth.

I remember a time when I planted a Phyllostachys nigra at the top of a dry hill on the edge of 60 degree incline sloping downwards ...
Two years later a single large new shoot appeared 10 ft down the steep slope, which I deduced being due a the rainwater seepage path, coming off the roof of a nearby building.

Bamboo rhizomes will seek the path of least resistance.
Despite having pointy tipped rhizomes and robust hydraulics when water is available, they do not come ready equipped with a pneumatic jack-hammer.

... though a shoot can sometimes serve as a jack ;) ...
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/505/thumbs/BoldAuTX070720-9672.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4610)



Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

I would have to agree with the Voodoolord that this is a Phyllostachys aurea (AKA: Golden/Fishpole). Several indications in the photo are:

1) it has a sulcus, thus likely is genus Phyllostachys.
2) it has variably and randomly shortened internodes, which is a very strong characteristic of Phy. aurea and the only Phy. to do that other than Phy. edulis (Moso).
3) green and yellow older canes are typical of Phy. aurea.
4) the wide culm sections just below the nodes are typical of Phy. aurea.
5) green leaves growing fully to the ground, also typical of Phy. aurea.

As for it growing as a "clumper", that is typical in compacted, poor or dry soils. We have several clumps of Golden boos here that have been in the ground for 10 to 15 years. They get rainwater in the fall and winter and they are deprived of water in late spring and summer. They are growing in heavy clay soil. None of them are more than 4 ft across. They have no running rhizomes, as they are in clay that hardens and dries out this time of year, the main running season. So in effect, they are in pots, even when planted in the ground.

The trick in these cases (if you want them to spread and run) is to lay down gobs of mulch, water them a lot and feed them lightly this time of year. I have some exemplars of aureas at the side of the house here running this year. They were from one of the dense aurea 'clumps' that I dug up and split and replanted. I moved some of them up here last fall and they now have shoots 2-4 ft from the main part of the plants in every direction and are filling in nicely (except the driveway which is crushed rock). I also dug up and split another one of them and planted them by the chicken coop, and left them pretty much alone. They are still 3 individule clumps. They are gowing nicely and putting out shoots, but there are no long runners, and they are not filling in.

My 'free' golden 2 cents worth...

[voodoolord]

Hey Shmu, I know GHMerrill personally and saw the bamboo in question my self. I told him it was aurea but he didnt believe me (or didnt want to believe me) so I told him to post it here. Thats why I left the funny first post kinda as an I told ya so.

[Mark Meckes]

If Gene hasn't discoverd the clumping runner, no doubt someone else will come up with a way of manipulating the oomph gene for the benefit of itsy bitsy urban 'boo lovers.

:eek:

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, Issac just has to always be right.....

seriously thougth,

the boo in question is in an area that is frequently watered, good soil, and has shown no tendancy to run. I took a nice division off of it, so I can see how it behaves in a pot, and this next spring, I can compare shoots with that of the P. aurea . One of these days I am going to remember to take a good look at Issacs P. mannii, and that will give a good comparison. I think that it is either a very well behaved aurea, or it is a mannii, and one of the aureas planted in the old yard sent a rizhome through the plant, and that is why it has those two culms with the compressed internodes.

like all things, time will tell!

P.S., Mark, if you figure out a way to manipulate their genetic structure, could I please have have a large culm, clumping bamboo that is a little more dramaticly colored, and can withstand at least zone 7 climate....... just a wish! oh, and grows to full size in a couple of years.... I hate waiting!
;)

[Mark Meckes]

At this moment I can only suggest trying out the "bicycle pump technique" on the new shoots, keep a sharp spade handy to keep runaways in check, and try your hand at spray paint boogra'ffiti ;)

[sasa fool]

Anytime I find a running species of bamboo that should have plenty of viable rhizome buds and yet it is not running as expected, further investigation has revealed that voles were the reason.

Every stinkin' time, apparently including the beautiful form of A gigantea that I have been waiting to divide :confused:

[ShmuBamboo]

If Gene hasn't discoverd the clumping runner, no doubt someone else will come up with a way of manipulating the oomph gene for the benefit of itsy bitsy urban 'boo lovers.

:eek:

Never! I happen to love Phyllostachys bamboos' invasive nature. It suits my naure as well. Move in, sit down, take over. If you want a non-invasive bamboo, there are a lot of clumpers out there. Like Fargesia, or Chusquea (culeou in particular). Both are impressive genuses. There are even slow runners in the genus Phyllostachys, like viridis. And then you can easilly contain the wild runners like Golden, if you know how. Native soils and climate here will not allow any bamboos to escape very far. I know of none that are invasive enough to be on any invasive species lists here in Oregon. I have a lot of Dept. of Forestry and Soil and Water District pamphlets on invasive plants here. We have to spray for them constantly, tractor them out, and pile them up and burn them by the thousands.

So in my view, even the most rampant runners do not have enough oomph for me! They do not even come close to the invasive nature of Himalayan blackberry or scotch broom. Of course, if they did, they would be pretty valueless I suppose. They would grow like broadleaf weeds, instead of like, er, grasses.

[ShmuBamboo]

Mannii does not have the compressed internodes. Believe me, you have an aurea. I have seen thousands of them. We have hundreds, if not thousands of Golden bamboo canes growing here. I have an 80 by 15 foot section of the stuff. I have maybe 30 other specimens of that species planted and potted up around here as well. There is no other boo like it. Also all Phyllostachys have leptomorph rhizomes. So technically they are all runners. Also mannii has a rough culm, like aureosulcata. Easy to distinguish it.

Spit, kick, cough, squirm all you want to, but you have a Golden bamboo there. BTW: I do have a single culm aurea in a 5 gallon pot, and I think it has lost its ability to runner and shoot. It has a single culm about an 1-1/4" wide, and I have it cut like a standard shrub at about 5 ft. high. No shoots in 3 years now. But it stays alive and well for some reason. Supposedly there is a way to cut them so that they will not grow rhizomes or shoot.

Yeah, Issac just has to always be right.....

seriously thougth,

the boo in question is in an area that is frequently watered, good soil, and has shown no tendancy to run. I took a nice division off of it, so I can see how it behaves in a pot, and this next spring, I can compare shoots with that of the P. aurea . One of these days I am going to remember to take a good look at Issacs P. mannii, and that will give a good comparison. I think that it is either a very well behaved aurea, or it is a mannii, and one of the aureas planted in the old yard sent a rizhome through the plant, and that is why it has those two culms with the compressed internodes.

like all things, time will tell!

P.S., Mark, if you figure out a way to manipulate their genetic structure, could I please have have a large culm, clumping bamboo that is a little more dramaticly colored, and can withstand at least zone 7 climate....... just a wish! oh, and grows to full size in a couple of years.... I hate waiting!
;)

[ShmuBamboo]

Anytime I find a running species of bamboo that should have plenty of viable rhizome buds and yet it is not running as expected, further investigation has revealed that voles were the reason.

Every stinkin' time, apparently including the beautiful form of A gigantea that I have been waiting to divide :confused:

Voles... interesting. We have a lot of voles around here. And moles. Deer do not eat boos, but voles eating the new rhizomes would make a lot of sense. It would also explain why our huge 80x15 ft aurea stand does not run (other than not getting water this time of year). We have Norwegian rats, mice, ground squirrels, voles, moles, wood rats, ringtales, possums, 3 types of deer... *sigh*

Dang, now I have to start exterminating voles. I think they have been getting into my zuccini lately. We have 4 cats... maybe 4 more?

[ghmerrill]

BTW: I do have a single culm aurea in a 5 gallon pot, and I think it has lost its ability to runner and shoot. It has a single culm about an 1-1/4" wide, and I have it cut like a standard shrub at about 5 ft. high. No shoots in 3 years now. But it stays alive and well for some reason. Supposedly there is a way to cut them so that they will not grow rhizomes or shoot.

I have a P. nigra like that- however, it was not a tall culm, so it looks like a small groundcover in a pot. looks cool, but no shoots ever. given the # of years one can live, I guess it will just keep bushing out, and looking interesting. makes a great decorative plant though!


Thanks for the info on the culm texure on the Mannii, I had not heard that before, so that is something else to consider.....:) these are smooth! Dang! I feel like I am living in the "bamboo flow chart from hell"...... too many species that I have found/dug from friends stock,(and they cant remember the name)

Gene

[ShmuBamboo]

Know this grasshopper: the bamboo flow chart from Hell is VERY LARGE. It is all around you.

Believe me, in any good bamboophile's garden, there is at least one bamboo that they do not have an ID on. "It is probably a this or a that, but the tag got lost. Or it reverted to something else. Or it flowered. It they planted seeds, and they are not sure what the form will be when it is mature. Or there was an escaped runner from somewhere. Or they found a bamboo at a nursery that was on sale becasue it was unmarked. Or, as I found at one place a few months ago, they had lost the tags of most of the bamboos, and they have over 1,000 of them! They bought a large collection and lost the names. One reason I mark the pots with a Mean Streak pen, and add a swing tag to the stem marked with a Sharpie pen. I found out long ago with orchids that when re-potting, names get lost. Metal foil tags fall off. Plant stake tags fall off, the cat digs them up, or they get eaten by the Bamboo monster (rhizomes). Or they get brittle in the sun and shatter. And plain slip-tags on the plants are not enough it seems. They tend to get lost or eaten as well. So I mark the pots with a grease pen, and add a stem tag. In the ground they get a stem tag. Redundant systems work well when naming bamboo.

I have 1...2...3...4 types of unknown bamboos in my collection. Two more are highly probable that I know what they are, but I am not for absolute certain yet. I got an 'its probably a Nuda' from my brother. The mini one I dug up in Eugene is throwing everyone off that I know and meet in the bamboo world. It could be a rampant runner that no one wants and everyone hates... or... it could be a rare type that they all want. In most places that I visit, they ask me if I can ID a plant or two, or if I know the growth habit of a certain type, or I see some new strange stuff. I was in California at a bamboo nursery and a guy was trying to figure out a Phyllostachys... we were stumped. I saw another very rare Phyllostachys today too. I forget the name though. I am always too busy on the road to have the time to chat and remember everything. But I was dazzled today, and that threw me off. I got a Phy. violascens, which I have been looking for for a few months now. But that was not what threw me off.

Just today I saw the most tortoise-shelled Phy aurea I have ever seen. I mean it is better than the Moso at Hakone Gardens that they name a DIFFERENT SPECIES for with that type of growth. It was worth the visit out of my way just to see that. I was late to get to another nursery so I did not have time to take a photo of it. But I will be back there for sure and snap a photo. Full-on 2+" diameter Golden bamboo with 6-9" sections of fully tortoise-shelled growth, even with the bulges just like Phy. edulis 'Heterocycla'. I will even go as far to say that I have found the elusive Phy. aurea 'Heterocycla'. Well, wait a minute... if I found it, I get to name it, right? Phy. aurea 'Clackamas'. The nursery is on the Clackamas River, see, and I happen to like that river as I have white water rafted it over 30 times over the past 25 years or so.

Anyway, many an oddball bamboo is out there. Actually the unlown ones are often times fun to ID. Look at all the chat that your Spectabilis drummed up!