Tortoise Shell Phy. bamboo

[ShmuBamboo]

This is a spin-off of a thread of my boo species list between Mark and myself about a so-called Tortoise Shell bamboo that I bought from a small nursery a few weeks ago. I have been doing some more reading and research on this stuff. Seemingly, Tortoise Shell is not a separate species of Phyllostachys bamboo. It only occurs as I have seen it at places like the Hakone Gardens in California as a variant of Moso (Phy. edulis). As Mark said before, most cuttings propogated from Phy. edulis Tortoise Shell revert to the basic form. That agrees with what McClure said in his booklet, Bamboos of the Genus Phyllostachys.

Looking around on the web and Ebay and some nurseries, the other much more common use for the term Tortoise Shell bamboo seems to be for Phy. aurea (AKA: Golden) with compressed internodes at the base. Lately on Ebay I have seen a lot of 'Golden' bamboos listed as Tortoise Shell. Mark listed a site that has some fellow selling cured Golden canes as Tortoise Shell (for a small fortune) with about a foot of internode compression at the bases of the plants.

I have seen several types of compressed lower internode Golden bamboos. Most have some compressed nodes at the base. Some seem to compress more than others, and seemingly the larger the diameter of the culms, the more distorted and Tortoise-shelled are the lower internodes. We have a huge stand here that is well over 20 years old and there is little of that type of growth at all, even with 1-1/2" diameter culms. My brother has a type of what we call 'Super Golden' in his garden and there are culms over 1-1/2" in diameter and they are very heavilly tortoise-shelled at the bases. They look so mutated that we thought that it was a different species of boo for a while earlier this year. They are still shooting, and seem to be heading to the stratoshphere. Over 20 ft. last I measured, and still growing.

So the question becomes... are there some variable types of Moso and Golden that are truely genetic variant forms that show heavy tortoise shell attributes? Or is this an abboration that occurs with these two species given a particular growing environment? Moso seem far more rare to show the formation, but it is far more distinct and runs most of the length of the plant (at least that is what I saw at the Hakone Gardens). The Golden forms seem to t-shell for about 2 ft at most. Mark mentioned that his large Golden types do the same for him in Texas. Oregon is a long way from Texas, distance and climate wise. ;)

[Mark Meckes]

Phyllostachys aurea is the only species of bamboo that I am aware of in which an internodal distortion trait does not consider the bamboo as a 'Cultivar' (of a species form) which does not bear this trait.
For example, if it was considered a cultivar of a species form it could be called for example, Phyllostachys aurea 'Culmpressa'. ;)

I'm unsure exactly what (combination of) environmental conditions can cause Phyllostachys aurea to exhibit more or less of this trait, but the position and nature of distortion on the culm does vary with the culm size and diameter.
I think the following conditions play some roles ...
- Local climate
- Rainfall, especially during shoot formation and emergence
- Soil type
One thing I have verified is that it is determined during the very early stages of a shoot's life, as shown:

Phyllostachys aurea shoot internodal deformations
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/thumbs/PaureaAuTX050422-160.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4462)
Click on image and see 10 other shoot closeups or view as large images Here (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4461&size=big&cat=503)

Here are some other threads which address the following:

Mystery of Phyllostachys aurea deformations (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=522)

Phyllostachys aurea - Internodal distortions (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=503)

Phyllostachys aurea - Hole in culm mystery (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=523)

Regarding Phyllostachys edulis (pubescens) 'Heterocycla'

Here are several links with pics of the tortoise shell distortions:
www.kyoto.zaq.ne.jp/dkakd107/E2-e.html

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:20040413_Phyllostachys_Pubescens_heterocycla.JPG

www.jardindescollines.com/index.php?id=184

It appears that in most cases the distortion also only occurs on a certain portion of the culm.

Mark

[Mark Meckes]

Back in 2001 I met someone by the name of Bamboo Bill who made walking sticks from the distorted portion of P. aurea culms.
He said he found his best pieces on poor soil around abandoned farmsteads in the SE US.
He brought a plant for Kinder Chamber to plant and see how it grew under different environmental conditions in central Texas.
I was at Kinder's place recently and took these 2 pics.

Phyllostachys aurea - 6 years after planting:
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/thumbs/PaurBillChBTX070619-9490.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4452) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/thumbs/PaurBillChBTX070619-9495.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4451)

So far nothing is strikingly different with this planting to a typical P. aurea

[ShmuBamboo]

Interesting. My brother bought 2 large specimen Phy. aureas 3 years ago from a nursery in Washington state and they both exibit the heavilly compressed internode tortoise shell patterns at the bases of the plants. Also the ones he cleaved off and potted up from runners also show it. His soil is good stuff; clay with bark mulch dug in, well watered year round. His Phy. aurea boos are growing in a area that he cultivated garlic in for 2 years prior to that (garlic requires really good soil to get any good size heads from). Its all turtling this year. He has some good photos of it. Tall fat culms this year too. 20+ ft tall and over 1.5 inches in diameter (the loose shoots with sheaths were almost 2 inches in diameter). His boo growing area is also protected from wind.

Meanwhile I have a large stand of Phy. aurea here (maybe 80 ft by 15 ft wide) and none have tortoise shell growth. Compressed nodes here and there, but onsey-twoseys and none really distroted like my brother's. I have a large 1.5 inch culm from it in a pot with only one short internode on it. This grove is in marginal clay soil that is compacted and has been contained by lack of water, competition with weeds and blackberry plants, and neglect (the goats were allowed to eat it for 2 years before I moved here). The grove was planted over 10 years ago. There were also 6 other clumps that I have dug up here that were contained by compacted adobe clay soil. None of them have any tortoise shell growth. Onsey-twosey compressed internodes and that's it. They are also a deep gold tone colored culm, but I believe that they are plain-Jane golden boos getting a lot of sunlight. New canes are green, and they stay green in the shade.

Unusual too that the non-compressed node Phy. aurea is the named cultivar. Takemurai is it?

[Mark Meckes]

You're right that Phyllostachys aurea 'Takemurai' throws a spanner into works of boo nomenclature.
I have not had a chance to take a good look at a plant and it's sheaths, sold as this species.

However here is at thread in which I've pondered the question ...
Phyllostachys aurea 'Takemurai' = P. meyeri? (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045)

Also of interest ... vinniedriver from the UK says ...
Do you mean f. takemurai or f. formosana?
.... My book, Hardy Bamboo (Taming the dragon), Paul Whittaker (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1595) says f. takemurai is unknown outside of america, and it's reputed to be more vigorous then 'ordinary' Aurea ...

I hope in time we can determine whether this species is fact or fantasy.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Ah yes, I forgot that there is also Meyer. I have had several opportunities to buy Meyer boo, as there is a lot of it around here. I have avoided it as in essance it is 'just like Golden,' and I have gobs of Golden boos here.

I have to wonder if Phy. meyeri is the same as Phy. aurea 'Takemurai'. Or vice verse. Meyeri is described by the ABS as "just like golden, but w/o the short internodes". Phy. aurea 'Takemurai' is described as "just like golden, but w/o the compressed internodes of the type form'. Takemurai grows to 33 ft high, and has up to 2.5 inch culm diameters. Meyeri is listed as growing to 36 ft. and has up to 2.75 inch culm diameters. Seems pretty similar to me anyway. :confused:

Its one for the Boo...org continuum to figure out. Now, back to tortoise shells...

[glenn smith]

We planted a black bamboo a few weeks ago when the new culms were six to twelve inches long. It has got its full height for the year now but I noticed a distortion yesterday on one node.

Glenn

[Mark Meckes]

Holy Culmoly Glen! What have you been feeding your bamboo?
I've heard that a high fat diet can cause arterial culmstipation but I've never seen this happen to black bamboo.

I've seen a chain link fence used in a vain attempt by "everso fashion conscious" Phyllostachys viridis to induce the Tortoise Shell Effect.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/698/thumbs/YPTX060225-1450.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4463)

We can plainly see it is not the "Real Thing" ;)

Mark

[glenn smith]

Hmmm....

Well, I got tired of holding the hose-end sprayer so I'm using an in-line feeder and a sprinkler on a tripod. Right now the fertilizer is a combo of synthetic urea(46-0-0) and KNO3 (13-0-44).

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg1016112621598.html


(I think most of the trace elements will be provided by the new mulch mounds). The grass around the mounds is starting to go into steroid overdrive now.

Since the culm was already well-risen when I purchased the plant, I suspect none of my nutritional manipulations were responsible for this Frankenculm...
Of course I wouldn't be resistant to creating culmstrosities if information became available as to the how and why!

Glenn

[Mark Meckes]

This year, whether or not it has to do with the extraordinary amounts of rain we've had during the boo shooting season, (and has continued to this day!) I have seen very little internodal distortions happening on our P. aurea near the base.
Tortoise shelling is mostly all happening way up there from 8 - 15ft.
Ocassionally there will be a compressed node here or there lower down.
Keep in mind our grove is very mature, with most culms larger than 1 1/2" > 2"+ in diameter.

A couple disadvantages of the P. aurea tortoise shell effect.
- Where this effect happens, it is the stiffest part of the bamboo, and when we get a doozer of a winter ice storm, we get a lot of breakage at this point - no flexibility here!
- When we need a bunch of long 10ft plus low taper bamboo poles we have to sort through a LOT of P. aurea poles to find them.

Also of note is that P. aurea has shorter internode lengths overall, versus P. meyeri which are a bit longer, (thus another reason for the height difference of these 2 species) ... so there are times, when one needs longer internoded pieces and straighter, longer poles that I wish half our grove was P. meyeri.

Now regarding what on earth causes this inter-nodal distortion to occur ..
Is it a minute genetic glitch? ... mutating bamboo?

With lengths I've cut open there appears to have been some jellification occuring, as if one side of the shoot was not able to rise upwards at the same rate of the other side.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Hey, that looks just like Phy. nigra 'aureosulkato' AKA: Black groovey bamboo. :cool: :cool: :cool:

We planted a black bamboo a few weeks ago when the new culms were six to twelve inches long. It has got its full height for the year now but I noticed a distortion yesterday on one node.

Glenn

[Mark Meckes]

Re: Glenn's Frankulmstein ... or Phyllostachys nigra 'Culmtorta'? ;)

One thing I've noticed with our nigras is that if there are high winds when the new culms are branching out, the branches can get their tips broken or they are bent at right angles etc. Then as they leaf out, the branches retain these very funky bent shapes.
At a very young age this species appears quite malleable, which I've notice when trying to straighten up some culms that grow out at an angle.
I was thinking once of trying to shape some culms into a serpentine shape while still young but never got around to it. ... maybe next year.

Regarding weird aurea internal deformations ...
Check out this pic of a compressed P. aurea internode section cut in half lengthwise:
A nodal diaphragm half developed right in the middle of the internode!
http://www.bamboocraft.net/workshop/data/2/thumbs/1Mvc-246f.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/workshop/showphoto.php?photo=736)

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

I wish I had some Golden tortoise shell to split, but alas, little of our Golden boo here is compressed at all. Even looking through the large stand here there is little more than random compressd internodes on the Phy. aurea. I did find some blackberry to weed out of there today though. :rolleyes:

My brother has sections over a foot long of heavy tortoise shell on his Phy. aureas. And he has it on all of his aureas. I am thinking it is more of a type than a growing environment thing. Maybe I will get one of his potted up ones and grow it here as a test.

[Mark Meckes]

I am thinking it is more of a type than a growing environment thing.
Well, I still think it also has a lot to do with a combination of types of .. climate, rainfall, soil, size of grove etc.
For example, by contrast, in the few places in our same grove where culm size is small diameter, (less than 3cm) and grows less than 4-5M tall, we will have the compressed (non tortoise shell look) node spacing at the base of the culm.
Sometimes just a few nodes, someties more.

This P. aurea pic was taken several years ago near where I had been digging out/pushing back part of the grove:
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/503/thumbs/1Mvc-206f.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=691)

This area (now long gone) was getting more of these characteristics near the base.

This leads me to another question.
Could this effect or degree of effect have anything to do with the relationship between the continuingly recycling rhizome system?
There comes a time, whether it is diminishing rhizome age, or number of, or competition between available supporting rhizomes that their vitality will have an effect, at least we know for certain, on culm diameter and height.

So it is odd that Phyllostachys edulis 'Heterocycla' and Phyllostachys aurea are unable to telescopically expand all their culm internodes during the crucial shoot emergence process. What causes this?

Most species of bamboo which have had some of their rhizomes severed during the shooting period will grow shorter internoded culms, but not like the "naturally occuring" odd behavior of the above two species.

I have seen Phyllostachys heteroclada 'Solidstem' produce the occasional compressed internode near the culm base, as such:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/606/thumbs/PheteroSldstmD9BGA050216-678.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1613)

Again, this is another weirdo bamboo that for obscure reasons decides to be solid or nearly so at the bottom 1-3ft of the culm, atypical of the regular form.

I haven't figgured out thet reasoning for using the term - "hetero" in the above two species except that hetero = different in Greek.
But then all species and cultivars are supposed to be "different". :confused:

"I'm lost for words to describe this boo. I guess I'll just call it ... different" ;)
heteroclada - differently clad
heterocycla - different cycle

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Well, I am now convinced after today that both Moso and Golden Tourtoise Shell growth is a symptom of something, but neither should be considered a separate species or sub-type or variety becasue of it. Individual culms or groves can be considered tortoise shell... but that is about it. Giving Moso t-shell a distinct variety name and Golden t-shell nothing is er, dumb? Culmfusing? In error?

I was at the Hakone gardens today in Saratoga, CA and I found out why they do not have the beautiful Moso tourtoise shell on their web site. It is because that stretch or Moso that is in the photo in the bamboo book I mentioned previously and I saw previously when I had a house in Campbell nearby is (drumroll please...) GONE! Yep. All their large tortouse shell Moso type has reverted to Moso. I found a section there screened off with some 55 gallon tubs of Tortoise Shell Moso boos in them and that was it, other than a few tortoise shell Moso here and there in their Moso grove. The long descending walkway with a complete stand of tortoise shell is no longer. Seemingly they hacked it all down (for some reason) or those culms died off and they were naturally replaced with normal growth Mosos. I snapped some photos of the grove and the potted t-shell plants (will upload when I get back home to Oregon).

I have photos of their large established Golden groves as well. To the contrary of the missing Moso t-shell stands, I found their huge stand of Golden had lots of t-shell growths. And the culms were fat and huge, defying the diameter limits of Phy. aurea listed in any and all books that I have. I snapped some photos of that as well, with a credit card on its side to show that the Phy. aurea there is as wide as a credit card turned on its side. That is way more than an inch and three quarters. That stuff is huge! Biggest I have seen. The Phy. aurea grove there is impressive; hundreds of culms, many years old now.

I found the tour to be somewhat of a let-down now that the magical Moso t-shell is no longer... *sigh*. They do have some large impressive stands of several types of black, aureocaulis, moso, golden and Vivax. None of the giant and old vivax aureocaulis were reverting to anything other than aureocaulis. They have come escaped rhizomes of that running 10s of feet from the mother plant, and fat (4 inches across).

After leaving there I found some other very interesting groves of boos in a private collection over the hill in Aptos with some impressive full sized vivax, Moso and Henon groves. I picked up three more boos from the owner too... and I have a new fellow bamboo buddy. He is a small collector has the bamboo bug pretty bad. Actually knows a lot about bamboo (rare), and is set up and growing them right (even more rare). ;)

[ShmuBamboo]

I do not know if you have hacked a zig-zag aureosulcata in half or not, but I am wondering if that is not a similar effect to the tortouse shell behavior in Moso and Golden? I was thinking of the similarity at Hakone today as they have a huge stand of Yellow Groove across from the Golden grove. The zig zag in aueosulcata is similar to the tortoise shell effect and is almost always at the bottom of the plant. Seemingly the internode has unequal growth, zigs, corrects, grows straight, then zags back or straightens out. I have some zig-zag Alata shoots that I removed when I repotted it. Maybe I will cleave them in half when I get home and see what is inside there.

[Mark Meckes]

Very interesting, regarding the Phyllostachys edulis 'heterocycla' at Hakone Gardens.
I had heard that it was a very unstable cultivar.
There are a number of other species cultivars like this that haven't developed strong evolutionary traits to survive for long on their own standing. Sometimes removing any new growth of the dominant species reversions will help to keep the unstable cultivar growing, sometimes not.

I'd love to see pics of your trip!
You might want to post about it in this forum:
Bamboo Collections, Gardens, Parks & Preserves (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=105)

If you want to initially upload images as attachment in the post, here's another tip:
Uploading photo attachments inline (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2713)

Regarding Phyllostachys aureosulcata ...
I can't remember seeing in this species, the aggregation of abnormal deformities inside the culm internode that I have often found in P. aurea.
It also has a different shoot growth habit, of the whole culm top bending over while it zigs (sometimes not always managing to zag it self back upright).
P. aurea culm shoots stay mostly upright during turtling.

P. aureosulcata zigging in Pennsylvania
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/520/thumbs/PasulcFRPa9805-002.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2993) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/520/thumbs/PasulcFRPa9805-001.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2994)

P. aureosulcata zig n zagging in Oklahoma
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/520/thumbs/Bamboo1d.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3582)

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Today I saw the most tortoise-shelled Phyllostachys aurea I have ever seen. I mean it is as good as the Moso at Hakone Gardens that they call Phy. edulis 'Heterocycla', except they are not as long. This stand is rather tall, at least 25 ft. It has been in the ground for a while, and it has 2+" diameter culms. And on it there are several 3" to 9" sections of fully tortoise-shelled culm growth, even with the full complete tortoise shell bulges just like Phy. edulis 'Heterocycla'.

I would even go as far to say that I have found the elusive Phyllostachys aurea 'Heterocycla'. Well, wait a minute... if I found it, I get to name it, right? It should be called: Phyllostachys aurea 'Clackamas'. The place that it is growing is on the Clackamas River, so it is an apt name. I will have to get some photos of it when I am up there again.