Yellow Groove: Is it P. aureosulcata or P. viridis 'Houzeau'

[Mark Meckes]

Discussion forked over from this Thread: Can Vivax Grow Straight??? (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2606)
BTW, Big Bamboo, do you know if the bamboo to the right (background) of this pic ...
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/davidclarkjr/BAMBOO/th_DAVIDCLARKJR_6-2-07006.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/davidclarkjr/BAMBOO/DAVIDCLARKJR_6-2-07006.jpg)

... is it Phyllostachys aureosulcata (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=520) - Yellow Groove Bamboo?

... or Phyllostachys viridis 'Houzeau' (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=598)?
(links to pics at Bamboo Flora)

Mark

[Bamabamboo]

As for the Yellow Groove Bamboo you asked about......I really wouldn't know....Maybe you can educate me on that......Do I have some of that growing as well?????

Thanks,
Cyrus
(BIGBAMBOO)

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Cyrus,
Can you see the yellow stripes on the internodes of the bamboo to the right of the pic?
Both Phyllostachys aureosulcata and Phyllostachys viridis 'Houzeau' have green culms with a yellow groove, visible in the branching portion of the culm, on the internode sulcus (groove).
But when the culms are larger, they will have a yellow striping on the culms internodes below where the branching begins.

P. aureosulcata - Yellow Groove Bamboo is one of the earliest of this genus of bamboo to send up shoots in the spring and P. viridis 'Houzeau' would be considered as mid-season.
The shoots of these species are easy to tell apart.

This is another way to find out which species it is:

Phyllostachys aureosulcata culms (especially younger ones) have a rougher textured culm internode surface.
If you lightly rub the culm internode surface it will feel like fine grit sandpaper.

Phyllostachys viridis 'Houseau' culm internodes have a very subtle dimpling, sometimes referred to as being similar to pigkskin leather.

Here is a pic of Phyllostachys viridis 'Robert Young'
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/551/thumbs/PvRY030615-783.JPG (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3226)
... showing the lightly dimpled culm surface.
You can feel this by slight unevenness by lightly rubbing the culm surface with your fingers.

Let us know what you find out.

Uh-oh, there is another species (that has green culms and a yellow groove or stripe)) ...
Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu' (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=656)

... but we'll see what you find out re: the first two possibilities first..

Cheers,
Mark

[Bamabamboo]

mmmmmmm........Interesting....I've never noticed that yellow stripe before......but now that you point it out, I see what you're talking about. I was pretty convinced that all the bamboo in this particular area was the same species....P. Vivax

The next time I go back to these people's place I'll have a closer look and maybe take more pictures....

Can you tell definitively that it's Yellow Groove Bamboo from the picture?

Thanks,
Cyrus Bearden

[Mark Meckes]

Can you tell definitively that it's Yellow Groove Bamboo from the picture?

The first bamboo to be given the common name of Yellow Groove Bamboo was Phyllostachys aureosulcata
aureo = "yellowish" ; sulcata = sulcus = groove

Other bamboo species cultivars having a yellow groove have no common name except for an abbreviation of their species name.

With pics of the shoots I could easily ID this from afar ... but unless you were able to get shoot pics, we might need to wait till next year.

However if you can let me know how the culms 'feel' as mentioned above, and perhaps with more pics, we might be able to get a handle on it's identification. :)

Mark

[voodoolord]

Im not sure what the diameter of the culms are from the pics but Im guessing its either Vivax 'Huangwenzhu' or Bambusoides castillons inversa. Im leaning towards Vivax though because of the shoot coloration. It definetly is not Aureosulcata thats for sure.
voodoo

[ShmuBamboo]

Yellow Groove (Phy. aureosulcata) would also tend to have zig-zag culms in a stand that size. Mine does anyway, even in a large pot. Having just now gone out to feel up my two aureosulcatas (I have type and Alata) they both have a slight rough feel to them sliding your hand up the culm, but not down. Not really sand papery, but rough to the touch. Vivax and Castillon have smooth stems. I do not have a Viridis to touch... yet.

[voodoolord]

Hey SHMU, I just think that totally looks like a Vivax shoot with the dark coloration. Most Bambusiodes are more speckled and not as dark.
voodoo

[ShmuBamboo]

You are probably right about it being a vivax. Viridis grows really slow here in the PNW, but it is very impressive when you get it to full height. Especially the Robert Young variety.

[voodoolord]

Hey SHMU your in Oregon right? where at? Im in Merlin just outside of grants pass.

[Mark Meckes]

Quite right, Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu' could be another possibility.
A "feel of the culms" will help to verify the specie.
It couldn't be Phyllostachys bambusoides 'Castillon Inversa' because new culms have a glossy surface, with only a scant hint of powdery coating at the upper internode, eventually forming a white band below the node, which turns black with age.

Every grove of Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' I've visited has had some culms reverting to Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu':

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/661/medium/PvivTZAuTX070421-7410.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4039)

I've not seen a regular P. vivax grove having culms with the above reversions, but then I've not had the opportunity to visit many vivax groves.

No idea whether the above cultivars were originally found as mutant forms in a grove of P. vivax or if they were selected from seedlings.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Hey SHMU your in Oregon right? where at? Im in Merlin just outside of grants pass.

You are very close to me. I know Merlin well. I used to kayak the Rogue River a lot this time of year. We are off of Highway 38 south-west of Drain out in the boonies of the coastal range.

[ShmuBamboo]

Every grove of Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' I've visited has had some culms reverting to Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu':

Mark

Wow, I hope that my vivax aureocaulis reverts to this 'freebie' form of vivax. I have never seen this type of reversion in any vivax stands out here though. Bamboo Garden has a large clump of vivax aureocaulis and no reversions in there. It is fairly new though as they moved there about 4 years ago. Same at Blue Heron and RKR though; no reversions in large stands that are well established. RKR has huge stands of Moso and vivax. All their vivax was true to form. Big stuff, 5 inch diameter and too tall to estimate the height. I will have to keep an eye out for that in future though.

[ShmuBamboo]

Ah, I sit corrected (well sort of). The Bamboo Garden does admit that they have had sports of Yellow Groove vivax from vivax 'Aureocaulis', but only when they were cutting and propagating rhizomes. No shoots in their groves. They say that it is the opposite though; that 'Huangwenzhu' vivax is a sport of and not a reversion to the original form of 'Aureocaulis' vivax. This is from their web site:

"Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu'
Common name: Yellow Groove Vivax
Maximum Height: 45 feet
Diameter: 3-5 inches
Hardiness: -9° F
USDA Zone recommended 6 through 10

This form of vivax grew as a sport of Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis'
when we propagated that bamboo from rhizome. Its coloration does seem fairly stable. It is essentially a "yellow groove" form of vivax--a yellow stripe occurring primarily on the sulcus of the culm. Mature height should be 35 to 45 ft. (possibly much taller) with an expected culm diameter of 3" to 5". Hardiness is listed at -9° F by the American Bamboo Society. Possibly a little more cold hardy than regular P. vivax but we don't get cold enough in Portland, Oregon to give it a thorough test."

[Mark Meckes]

This can also happen with Phyllostachys viridis 'Robert Young' which parts can revert to Phyllostachys viridis 'Houzeau'.

Here's an example of a long established Phyllostachys viridis 'Robert Young' grove gone wild in Louisiana:
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/551/thumbs/PvRYJILA070225-4879.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3931)
Click on thumbnail to view medium pics or View large here (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3931&size=big&cat=551)

These Bobby boos are culmfused :confused: :
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/551/thumbs/PviridisRY-SkvTX050412-074.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1112) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/698/thumbs/PvRYYPTX060225-1478.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4465)

I've seen an established grove of 'Robert Young' which had almost completely reverted to 'Houzeau'.

There may be a possibility that Bamboo Gardens might have cut out any rising 'Huangwenzhu' from their 'Aureocaulis' patch to keep it "pure", though the reversion in the pic shown in the above post didn't happen till the 6th year (I think) of that planting.

My guess is that any species form with more green to it would become the dominant species if left up to nature.

I will crawl into the Louisiana 'Robert Young' grove next year and check if any culms reverted completely to the regular Phyllostachys viridis.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

There may be a possibility that Bamboo Gardens might have cut out any rising 'Huangwenzhu' from their 'Aureocaulis' patch to keep it "pure", though the reversion in the pic shown in the above post didn't happen till the 6th year (I think) of that planting.

My guess is that any species form with more green to it would become the dominant species if left up to nature.

I will crawl into the Louisiana 'Robert Young' grove next year and check if any culms reverted completely to the regular Phyllostachys viridis.
Mark

I was there last month walking around the Bamboo Garden vivax stands. They have well established groves for display, and others specifically for propagation. The display groves were not messed with, from what I could see. For them this was a rare event and they are propagating (and selling) the other type of vivax as a sport, not a reversion. Their price list reflects this as well, in that they want a lot more for the vivax 'Huangwenzhu' than for 'Aereocaulis'. And a Homer Simpson wiggly fingers "Ooooohhhhhhh..." their vivax Aureocaulis just went up in price as well (after I bought the best one of several hundred in their propagation greenhouse at the old price).

To support both the Bamboo Garden statement and yours... (the world of Bamboo can be very culmfusicating at times) looking in my Hardy Bamboos book, it says (on page 176) that vivax 'Huanvenzhu' can revert to vivax 'Aureocaulis' and that vivax 'Aureocaulis' can revert to 'Huanvenzhu' and sometimes even revert to the vivax mother species type form as well. So they are switchable reversion types it would seem. I will be patiently waiting for my 'Huanvenzhu' culms to appear in my vivax 'Aureocaulis' stand.

I love it when everyone is right. So politically correct. :)

[sasa fool]

Thus far my 5 year old Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' has remained 'true' with the exception of 1 culm last year that is solid green from ground to tip from one viewing angle. Jos van der Palen in the Netherlands showed me where he had isolated rhizomes/culms from Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' that were producing yellow culms with green in the sulcus only, and the form has become known as Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu Inversa'. This form is available now in the US. Thus far, after 2 years my Phy. vivax 'Huangwenzhu Inversa' has yellow culms/green sulcus. My 2 year old Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu' has thus far produced only green culms with a yellow sulcus. Easy to follow no;)

[ShmuBamboo]

Thus far my 5 year old Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' has remained 'true' with the exception of 1 culm last year that is solid green from ground to tip from one viewing angle. Jos van der Palen in the Netherlands showed me where he had isolated rhizomes/culms from Phyllostachys vivax that were producing yellow culms with green in the sulcus only, and the form has become known as Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu Inversa'. This form is available now in the US. Thus far, after 2 years my Phy. vivax 'Huangwenzhu Inversa' has yellow culms/green sulcus. My 2 year old Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwenzhu' has thus far produced only green culms with a yellow sulcus. Easy to follow no;)

Wow. The only Phy. vivax 'Huangwenzhu Inversa' I have seen was like $100 clams for an itty bitty one gallon pot. It seems that the stability of these types varies as much as the variation. Interest and price in these varied vivax types seems to be increasing quite a lot of late as well. I bought another 'Aureocaulis' the other day even though I already have one. It was a nice specimen, the price was right, and well, I like the stuff! Maybe I am becoming an aureocaulis junkie??? ;)

[Mark Meckes]

The Phyllostachys bambusoides 'Castillon' portion of discussion has been forked over to This new thread (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2714) which I'll post my comments to soon.