Looks like a Vivax (Ans: P. viridiglaucescens or P. elegans)

[Carlo]

Dear,
I transplanted a rhizome with a shoot from a grove of my neighborhood's garden. I know it is not the best moment to transplant a rhizome, hope it will survive. I took these photos today, five days after transplanting and I was wondering what kind of bamboo it is? The culms in the grove are tall and straight, green with medium leaves size. I could go back there and take some photos.... I think it is a Phyllostachys vivax :). What do u think? By the way I have already four Phyllostachys: Castillonis, Aurea, Nigra and Nigra Boryanna.

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
Yes, it does appear that it might be Phyllostachys vivax (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=538) (pics at the gallery Bamboo Flora)
We will need to take a better look at the shoot as it hopefully continues to grow, as it is quite late in the spring season for rhizome propagation.

Yes, please do upload more pics and also from the grove where you got this plant. :)

Mark

[Carlo]

Hi, :)
I took some photos of the grove from where I transplanted the rhizome. It should really be a Phyllostachis Vivax, but the leaves are quite big??
Anyway here are the photos, nice culms for Switzerland... :). Thanx for your reply

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
Nice pics! Yes it does look like vivax and growing very nicely in your area. The only drawback with this species is that the culms can easily break under heavy snow or ice storms due to the relatively thin walls of the culms.

Some Phyllostachys vivax ID clues ...

- The distinct rounded rim of the nodal ridge which become more noticeable as the culms grow larger and white band below the nodes on new culms:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/538/thumbs/PvivSAZooTX060127a-286.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3098) View Large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3098&size=big)

- The grooved indentations on the culm internode surface, more noticeable on larger culms:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/539/thumbs/1PvivaxM8-MGA050227-778.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=958) View Large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=958&size=big)

The culm sheath blade should exhibit a crinkled appearance as the shoots get taller as shown in this pic of ...
Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis':
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/661/thumbs/PvivTZAuTX070424-7530.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4017) View Large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4017&size=big)

The internode lengths are quite long in your pics and this may have to do with local growing conditions and crowded culms reaching for sunlight.
Considering the potential size and diameter of this species in ideal conditions ...

Height: 70ft (21M) ... Diameter: 5" (12.7cm)

... The grove is still in a juvenile stage of growth :eek:

Please do upload more pics as you get them.

Mark

[Carlo]

Mark, it is definitly a Phyllostachis Vivax, the grooved indentations on the culm internode surface are well visible (I even noticed that when I touched the culm). Are groove indentations on the culm common to other species, varieties? Thank you again.
Next week, I will post more photos (at a reduced resolution) on your the website.

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
Yes, other Phyllostachys species can have grooved indentations on the culm internode surface but there is something very distinct in the look and feel of vivax.

Another indicator is that some of the lower nodes can have dormant buds as shown here, and which I can see in the photo of the grove in your post:
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/539/thumbs/1PvivaxM9-MGA050227-762.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=959)

Also keep track of this recent thread and see the pics of what I am guessing is P vivax (more pics will be coming as they grow):
unknown #4 (Phyllostachys vivax?) (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2575)

I am hoping very much that the shoots from your new planting will grow and that I can take a better look at the sheath parts.
As a shoot grows taller, various sheath characteristics become more revealed, which are very helpful to determine species identity.

Look forward to seeing more pics of your plants and other bamboos in your area.

Cheers,
Mark

[Carlo]

Mark, here are some others photos of the grove. The rhizome I tranplanted two weeks ago seems to catch up the stress. The shoot stopped growing and is probably dead ( I expected that ), but we can see a small bud that came out of an outside node. :).

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
That's too bad about the bigger shoot :(, but I agree, it's demise was to be expected, propagating from a rhizome at this time of year.
But you do have a healthy rhizome :), and maybe we can get some ideas or at least learn what a smaller shoot will look like of this big bamboo species.

The two things I was hoping to see, to determine for sure that it is Phyllostachys vivax is ...
- That the sheath blades (at the top of the sheath) further up the culm are crinkled.
- That the sheath contains no auricles (ear-like appendages) with oral setae (frilly filaments) attached to auricles.

The grove might still have some of the dropped sheaths laying on the ground or stuck up in a branch, and if it is not too far away it may be worthwile to look around and see if you can still find any sheaths with parts intact that might provide some clues.
The lower culms sheaths are not very helpful as these sheaths generally do not have intrinsic sheath parts that are well developed and useful for ID.

Mark

[Carlo]

Hi Mark,
I managed to find a sheath and it has auricles with oral setae!! (Check the photo).
Then I have no idea what this bamboo can be. :confused:
Does the photo tell you something?
PS: thank you for the nice descprition to identify a phyllostachys vivax

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
One thing that made me feel uncertain about this plant's ID is because the culms in the grove appear very straight, whereas P. vivax culms have a distinct wobble, especially noticeable with large culms as shown here:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/539/thumbs/1Pvivax7-MGA050222-515.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=938)

Now we know that it can not be vivax. I think this is what it is:
Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=648) (pics at Bamboo Flora)
(Disregard the blotches showing on culms of the Savannah Georgia pics as this is due to regional causes due to high humidity)

I am guessing, because this is one Phyllostachys that I have never had the pleasure to observe first hand, and the nearest grove (that I know of) is far away.

Here are some more pics at Das Bambus - Lexikon:
http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/phyllostachys-viridiglaucescens.html

Another species which has similar appearances to P. viridiglaucescens is:
Phyllostachys elegans (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=545) (pics at Bamboo Flora)

I do have this species, (shown in the photos) though it will be several more years before it reaches full maturity.

There has been some confusion as to the differences between these two species, infact the site above doesn't even list P. elegans.
So I don't know whether P. elegans is commonly available in Europe or whether these two species are commonly culmfused or misidentified.

( ... and I am stuck between a rock and a hard place because I have not personally become acquainted with P. viridiglaucescens during shooting. :( )

I can say that McClure listed these as two separate species in his Phyllostachys Handbook published in 1957.

Anyway there's nothing like a challenge to unfold the mysteries of bamboo identification.
I will outline some differences between these two species, but first, some questions.

Can you provide another pic(s) of the sheath, showing the ligule (section at the top of the sheath between the auricles?

Can you measure the average largest diameter of culms?

Can you measure the average longest culm internode length (what you can reach)?
(metric is fine)

Thanks :)

Mark

[Carlo]

Hi Mark,
I found a late shoot growing (smaller one) :). Check the photo.
Larger culms are about 2 inches and 1/4, internode lengh about 12 inches.
I read that leaf underside of the Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens is pubescent, but I did not noticed that :S, need to check again! :).

[Carlo]

The shoot is very similar to the photo of the Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens on http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/phyllostachys-viridiglaucescens.html. :)
I just remember that we took some young shoots and we ate them raw, and they were very tasty :).

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
It is great to see that you found a shoot!
They look a little different than my P. elegans shoots which makes me feel that it is P. viridiglaucescens
The sheath ligule appears more extended than in P. elegans.

If you are able to take more pictures pictures of the shoot, even at a higher resolution or hopefully a sharper focus (hard to do) I would appreciate this very much.

Now for the confusing stuff!

I read that leaf underside of the Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens is pubescent, but I did not noticed that :S, need to check again!

McClure, in his 1957 Handbook on Bamboos of the Genus Phyllostachys did not say that the leaf blades of [i]P. viridiglaucescens are pubescent, but "nearly glabrous".

Glabrous = without hairs : nearly glabrous = nearly without hairs

Quote from McClure's Handbook pg 33 when describing P. elegans:
"In general appearance of the culm sheaths, P. elegans resembles P.viridiglaucescens with which it was earlier confused."

P. viridiglaucescens has...
- a longer ligule on the culm sheaths,
- longer, differently shaped and nearly glabrous leaf blades
- perfectly smooth culm internodes without a sign of striation."

and conversely...
Quote from McClure's Handbook pg 60 when describing P. viridiglaucescens:
P. viridiglaucescens is apt to be confused with P. elegans,...(from here he is discussing P. elegans) > ... which differs in
- the relatively short definitely ribbed-striate internodes of it's culm
- and it's much smaller, usually lance shaped leaf blades that are pubescent on the lower leaf surface

So (repeating)... McClure says ...
P. viridiglaucescens - perfectly smooth culm internodes without a sign of striation
P. elegans - the relatively short definitely ribbed-striate internodes of it's culm

Here is showing the grooved striations of a P. elegans internode:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/medium/PelegansATX050409-020.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1034) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/medium/PelegAuTX050816-027F.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2220)

Many Phyllostachys species do exhibit some degree of striation on the culm surface, though P. elegans is more pronounced.

The culm internode lengths are shorter with P. elegans

Culm diameter of P. elegans is supposed to grow slightly larger, but this may also depend on environmental/climate conditions.

P. elegans culm diameter - 2.3" (5.8cm)
P. viridiglaucescens culm diameter - 2" ( 5.1cm)

Thank you very much Carlo for being here in this very difficult ID quest!

For reference purpose, here is the other P. viridiglaucescens ID? (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1255) (Macedonia) thread.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Mark

[Carlo]

Hi Mark,
I think it is a P. viridiglaucescens, but I have still some doubts :)
Upperside of a leaf (about 7 inches long or 17 cm)
1049

Very slight grooved indentations on the culm internode surface (only on big culms)
1050
Medium and small sized culms do not have any indentations...

Top part of a late shoot (shoot that is dying)
I think elegans shoot looks pretty different from this one... What do you think?
1051

1052

Other info: shoots grow a little bit earlier compared to my P. aurea

Cheers,
Carlo

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
Nice pics!
Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens shoots emerge early in the season compared wth P. aurea which is considered mid-season.

The culm internode surface is very interesting, though perhaps not as grooved as P. elegans.

At the moment, due to it's early shooting behavior and it's hardiness and vigor, and other characteristics that have helped to eliminate many species as possible candidates, I can not think of any other species that this could be except P. viridiglaucescens.

I must acquire this species, not only to study it but because it is known for providing good material for craft use.

Mark

[Carlo]

Mark, thank you for your support. Things will be confirmed over time, when new shoots will appear.
A little question, can we find on the net a place to order the McClure's Handbook?

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
There is a photocopied pdf file (33MB) of
Bamboos of the Genus Phyllostachys, F. A. McClure, Agriculture Handbook #114, 72pp, June 1957
at this link near the bottom of the page below the title - The USDA National Agricultural Library:

http://americanbamboo.org/BooksOnBamboo.html

This book has been out of print for many years, though some copied versions of it have been available at different times.

From McClures Phyllostachys handbook, for P. viridiglaucescens, with some definitions added:

Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens

Culms green, copiously but sometimes loosely farinose (covered with a sort of white, mealy powder) at sheath fall, entirely glabrous, (smooth; having a surface without hairs, projections, or any unevenness), not ribbed ...

Culm sheaths pale buff, tinged with green and strewn with small brown spots and blotches throughout, loosely farinose, scabrous, and often sparsely setose (bristly hairs) ...

Auricles, usually 2, sometimes 1, rarely 0, long narrow, falcate, (sickle-shaped), dark wine, very frangible when dry (capable of being broken; brittle; fragile; easily broken)
Oral setae (filaments extending from auricle) few but prominent when the auricles are present, otherwise lacking,

Ligules (tip of sheath at juncture of sheath blade) rather tall and narrow, often asymmetrical, more or less strongly convex at the apex, the margin more or less regular to lanciniate, finely to coarsely ciliate (fringed with tiny hairs), at length smooth.

Sheath blades narrow, ribbon shaped, reflexed, usually more or less strongly crinkled ...

Leaf sheath with auricles and oral setae usually developed, fungacious; Ligules exserted, soon split and mutilated ...

...........

BTW, I found some more pics of P. elegans which I took this spring which may help for comparison.
I'll try to upload them to the gallery later on tonight.

Mark

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
I uploaded some more pics from this springs (2007) shoot emergence of Phyllostachys elegans (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=545).
It is amusing that even after uploading 150 pics of the same species growing in a single location (my place), that many more pics are required to evaluate the variations in the the inner and outer characteristics of this species.

For example, even though a culm sheath is often crucial for determining a species ID, there are so many different variations in it's appearance, depending on the location and climate where it is growing, the amount of rainfall, the temperature at shoot emergence, soil conditions and so forth.

Then there's the size or maturity of shoot, the position of the sheath on the culm, whether it's near ground level, at mid shoot height or near the top of the shoot, all in relation to the actual stage of development or height of shoot relative to it's final height.

And then there's the amount of sun exposure on the sheaths, as the intensity of color can vary considerably at the sunny periphery of a grove or in the shady interior.
Of course the camera/image taken needs also to be culmsidered, the effects of a flash, and whether any "additional enhancements' were applied to the image.

And finally, in the case of Phyllostachys viridiglaucesens and Phyllostachys elegans, whose characteristics are so very similar, and which there is sometimes culmtradictory definitions regarding the characteristics of each specie, it is necessary to take into culmsideration that the definitions provided by taxonomists a long time ago may not always be precise.
They never had the freedom to postulate about, and provide images as we can here concerning the variability of characteristics within a species.
And printed publications are so very restricting.

Well, eventually we will solve this culmundron, and determine whether some bamboos shown on websites in Europe are indeed Phyllostachys elegans or Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens, and whether your bamboo is one or the other, or both - if it turns out that they are indeed one and the same specie.

My ears (or should I call them auricles?) are to the ground, listening for signs of a P. viridiglaucescens grove somewhere not too far away that I could visit and closely examine, (or alternatively entice someone to provide pics of).
This autumn I will try and get hold of a verified P. viridiglaucescens to plant, so that next spring I can observe the new shoots first hand and culmpare the differences, with my P. elegans.

Cheers,
Mark

[sasa fool]

I have recently made my 3rd attempt to obtain a proper P. viridiglaucescens. My first attempt just seems way too cold sensitive and extremely slow to get going so I think it is of dubious ID. With that in mind I obtained a large division from another grower only to have him tell me 2 years later that his grove was mis-ID'd and we both had a different clone of P. rubromarginata.

My 3rd try is from yet another vendor and it does look different from the other 2 although no's 1 & 3 are still producing juvenile shoots so no ID chance there. No 2 does indeed look like rubromarginata.

[Mark Meckes]

Brad, you brought up an interesting point.
The differences in purported cold hardiness between P. elegans: 0F (-18C) and P. viridiglaucescens: -11F (-24C)

Carlo, what is the minimum winter temperature in your area of Switzerland?

According to the 2007 American Bamboo Society Source List:
Phyllostachys elegans
Max. Height: 32ft (10M)
Max. Diameter: 2.3" (5.8cm)
Min. Temperature: 0F (-18C)
Sun/Shade: 5 (full sun)

Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens
Max. Height: 35ft (11M)
Max. Diameter: 2.0" (5.1cm)
Min. Temperature: -11F (-24C)
Sun/Shade: 5 (full sun)

These statistics aren't intended to be "carved in stone" as variabilities will occur.
They are interesting for culmparison of differences.

For example...
P. viridiglaucescens can grow taller but is smaller in diameter.
P. elegans grows a little shorter but can grow larger in diameter.
This can also account for the culm internode length being shorter with P. elegans.
Our 5 year old planting has a few culms 1 3/4" (4.5cm) diameter, but the longest internode length so far is under 10" (25cm).

Mark

[Carlo]

Mark,
The temperature here in switzerland (Geneva) during winter rarely goes below -10 C, coldest winter it went to -15 maybe even -18. But usually a "normal" winter it does not go below -4.
We are still stuck :S.

[Carlo]

I think it is a Viridiglaucescens for several reasons:
- Nearly all culms of the grove are not ribbed, and the culm in the photo I took is just slightly ribbed relative to the size of the culm. I think it is not genetically ribbed it is ribbed because of local conditions (soil etc...).
- The leaves are not pubescent on the lower surface.
- The ligule is bigger than the P. Elegans one. Very similar to the image in MCLure doc
- Viridiglaucescens has tiny tiny thorns on the border of its leaves (need a lens to see that) look at http://www.aebfrance.com/bambou-anatomie/botanique-02.html Mark can you check if P.Elegens has the same?

-Viridiglaucescens is very common in central Europe

Thank you to all of you
:)

[Carlo]

Photo of the thorns on the leaves of the grove near my house

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Carlo,
P. elegans also has the thorns on the leaf edge (see below)

We can take a closer look at the leaf sheath characteristics and leaf size.
P. viridiglaucescens can have longer leaves than P. elegans
I did find a few end leaves that were a little longer than stated (below) for P. elegans, but mostly they were around the size mentioned.

Description from McClure's Phyllostachys Handbook:

Phyllostachys elegans
Leaf sheaths commonly tinted with wine (color), with auricles usually well developed and fringed with oral setae (filaments): Ligules slightly exserted (protruding), weakly ciliolate (edged with fine hairs) on the margin.
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/P-elegansAuTX050506-255.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1043) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1043&size=big)
(New/fresh leaf sheath ligules are wine, older ones change to blonde)

Leaf blades lance-shaped, up to 4" (10cm) long and 3/4" (2cm) broad.
More commonly less than 3 1/8 " (8cm) long and 3/4" broad, densely pubescent throughout on the lower surface.
Underside of the leaves of P. elegans
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/PelegAuTX070302-5257.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3837) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3837&size=big&cat=545)
View large image to see pubescent underside and thorns on the leaf edge.


Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens
Leaf sheaths with auricles and oral setae usually developed, fugacious (lasting only a short time): ligules exserted (protruding), soon split and mutilated.
Leaf blades 1 5/8" (4cm) long X 1/4" (.6cm) broad, to 7 5/8" (19cm) long X 1" (2.5cm) broad.
More commonly 4" (10cm) to 5" (12.7cm) long and 1/2" (1.3cm) to 3/4" (1.9cm) broad.

Mark

[Carlo]

Leaves size are between 5 and 7 inches and the under leave side is apparently not pubescent. this could be another hint to say it is a P. Viridiglaucescens...
:S