ID? Bamboo sp. #1 (Pl. gauntletti / Pl. humilis?)

[ShmuBamboo]

New to this list, but not bamboo. I have about 15 types. Maybe less. I thought I had a second giant type of arrow, but alas its just arrow (20 ft tall!). Also thought I had a second type of black, maybe a subspecies variant, but on close comparison both are P. nigra. Off the top of my head some of the other types that I have are: Golden, Arrow, Nihiria, Nuda, Black, and Castillon.

I also have these types that I got from several sources, mostly unwanted plants from gardens in California and Oregon.

First one is this: temperate, runner type, short very thin stems grow to about 3 ft at most, green leaves, green and purple stems. Photo to follow.

ID help appreciated so I can trade some of these to my brother who has over 40 types of Bamboo (they have taken over his 7,000 sq. ft. lot, but they look really nice).

[ShmuBamboo]

Here is a photo of the first bamboo I am trying to ID. Short growth (3 ft tall) really thin purple stems, green leaves. Has running rhizomes.

[Mark Meckes]

Hi ShmuBamboo,
Very interesting collection you have, and some real puzzlers that will take a bit of guesswork and will need more photos, if at all possible new shoot sheaths, culm shots etc to ID.

Now I've gotta do some garden chores before the sun sets.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

I need to go out and pot up some bamboos this evening myself. Nihiria always likes to grow new shoots out the base of plastic pots... they grow fast.

[ShmuBamboo]

Here is another photo of the baby type I have. Note the purple color. Culms are all of 1/16 inch thick. Runner type; was weedy in the yard that it came from.

[Mark Meckes]

This may be a tough one to ID (for me), but I'll begin with a wild guess as ...

Arundinaria funghomii (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=586) (pics at the gallery BambooFlora)

According to the 2007 ABS Source List ...
Arundinaria funghomii
Max Height: 30ft (9M)
Max Diameter: 1.1" (2.8cm)
Cold hardiness - not listed
New culms covered with a gray bloom for most of the first year.
Grows to about 4ft tall in cold climates
May be a synonym for Pseudosasa cantori

What struck me when I saw this plant was the brilliant coloration of the sun exposed culms.

Please do take more pics when you can. The nearest planting of this species (that I know of) is a long way from home.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Cannot be. I waded through this boo in the yard that it came from and it was mature and established there for many years. In both shade and sun, escaped from an original raised bed planter box, under a sidewalk and into a street lawn ribbon. It was only 3 ft high at the most. Spindly culms maybe 1/8 inch in diameter at the most. I would say that the last photo I posted is of a mature culm 2-1/2 ft high. The immature clumps I have are about 6 inches high. This is a miniature type of boo.

[Mark Meckes]

Okay, I tried. ;)
Some bamboo species can have a 'strange behavior' of growth unlike their mature counterparts for many years due to and/or dispite growing culmditions or climate, before achieving, if ever achieving their potential size of growth.
Add to the fact that a very diminished stature of this species can be expected in colder climates is specifically mentioned.
This can make bamboo ID quite a challenge, adding to the mystery of the unknown!

Oh, and I'll admit a bias towards A. funghomii because the first time I saw it I wanted this plant because of the culm color and for craft use.
I tried growing it when living in NE PA but it vanished from my garden within 3 years - tooooo cold. Maybe here in Texas I'll have better luck.

More pics will be needed of any key identification parts to get a handle on this species.

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

Will post when I get the chance. Wind and rain here today, making photos of bamboo not :eek: possible. Though these little ones do not have much to photograph from a macro perspective.

[ShmuBamboo]

Looking at the stems of these small boos after the summer sun has hit them for over a month now, they seem to be more reddish than purple now (the narrow culms were purple growing in the shade where I got them). Comparing them to some similar sized plants at a nursery this past weekend, they look a lot like Fargesia dracocephala in color and leaf, except these were definately escaped runners and not clumpers.

[Mark Meckes]

Howdy ShmuBamboo,
If you can take pics of the branch leaf sheaths or see if it contains any frilly oral setae, etc, that would be a help.
Any new shoots?

I just happened to visit a friend who has, (my first guess), Arundinaria funghomii.
I will go through the pics I took and upload them soon, for culmparison.

Cheers,
Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

No new shoots. They pretty much seem happy and green (5 potted up), but nothing else. No shoots. Sleeping this year. I will have to look at them closely with a magnifying glass and see what I can observe.

[ShmuBamboo]

Sitting here with several pairs of reading glasses and a magnifier, it is hard to see much detail on these plants. Definately boo, not grass. New shoots look like they came up more than a month ago. Some side stems forming branches from nodes. Nodes have fuzz just above the base of the sheaths. There are hairs at the base of the leaves that run out past the curve at the base. The leaf margins are rough; they catch the finger if I run my finger in toward the base of the leaf, they do not catch running fingers outward on the leaf margins. Fine hairs along the leaf sheaths.

Here are some close-up snaps... not sure the detail will come through or not in these photos.

[Mark Meckes]

Yep, the pics are a bit fuzzy. Perhaps you could try again some time.
Some of my pics didn't work out very well also, so I'll visit the bamboo again when I can.
See Chambers Arundinaria funghomii (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=586&ppuser=29) - Buckholts Texas.
Planted about a dozen years ago, it is the Central Texas soil conditions and dry summers that have caused this planting to grow very compact and with slow spread.

Some traits for Arundinaria funghomii
- upright closely spaced culms
- The leaf sheaths, and culm sheaths of A. funghomi have very noticeable oral setae (filament)
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/586/thumbs/AfungChBTX070619-9390.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4321)

- The new culm sheaths have a glaucous (light powdery coating)
- Powdery ring below new culm internodes
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/586/thumbs/AfungChBTX070619-9396.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=4318)

- The culm sheath leaf blade is quite wide at the base, partially wrapping around the culm

As mentioned, there are a number of species possiblities for your bamboo, and the only way to verify for sure is to piece together a group of similar traits typical of another species.

Mark

[sasa fool]

Under the heading of wild guess, how about a Semiarundinaria - makinoi perhaps?

[Mark Meckes]

Semiarundinaria makinoi - culms soon turn reddish brown
Sounds likes a good possibility.
I've never had a opportunity to take a good look at this species.

I'm presuming that all Semirundinaria species culm sheaths detach by the end of the first year, or into the second year (?) so this is another thing to check on ShmuBamboo.

[voodoolord]

Ok guys mystery solved. Plioblastus Pumilus. I compared it with one of my plants and it was pretty much a 100 percent match. Ill have to post some pics to compare.

[ShmuBamboo]

I am not familiar with the name Pleioblastus pumilus, nor have I seen it listed anywhere. A nursery I visited this weekend had Pl. humilis in a large pot, and it was very similar. Purple stems, tall and thin, fan-like leaves, however... that was very thick grown in the pot, taller, and completely mounds up in a pot. It is also very aggressive when planted in the ground, and grows to 7 ft tall.

I was thinking that this type is more probably Pleioblastus gaunlettii after looking in my Hearty Bamboo book tonight. It says that Pl. gauntlettii is far less aggressive and shorter than Pl. humilis, and that they are very close cousins. The description of this plant also more closly matches the ABS source listing for Pl. gauntlettii: slender drawf culms, grows to 3 ft., leaves to 7 inches. My leaves are more like 6 inches at the longest.

Now, Pl. pumilus? Scracthing head... I do not have a description for that. Synonomous to Arundinaria pumilus? Which would make the guys here on the 'Boo Forum pretty close with thinking it was an Arundinaria type. But... Pl. pumilus is not in the ABS source list. Some online bamboo sources list Pl. pumilus as a variety of Pl. humilis. Amusingly, Bamboo Giant lumps Pl. gauntletti, Pl. pumilus and Pl. humilis and Arundinaria pumilus all together as one type. They also say that pumilus may be the shorter type. Their photo is a good match.

So... is pumilus the same as guntlettii? If so, then I would agree. I list my bamboos as per the ABS, for no other reason than it is an American source and more likely to be accepted locally as an authority and the names used at nurseries. Not that I agree with everything in the ABS publications. In the place that I got this bamboo from, it had been in the ground for a long long time. 10 years at least. It was a runner, but not *that* aggressive. Also was only 3 ft tall at the most, mostly shorter, and fairly sparce and spindly in habit.

[voodoolord]

What I found is that its called Pleioblastus humilus var Pumilus. The description I read was 2 1/2 feet to 3 feet, purple culms. I compared the leaf structure and they were identical. The shoots were identical and the culm color were identical with my Pumilus. It seems that Pumilus tends to be used by the Europeans more than here. The difference between Humilus and Humilus var Pumilus was about 4 feet in height with the Pumilus being the smaller.

[voodoolord]

heres something interesting I found for a description of Gauntlettii

PLEIOBLASTUS GAUNTLETTII

2' height, Shade/sun, 0 degrees F Minimum, Runner.

Bright green young canes mature to purple. Uninteresting as an immature plant & we have never seen a mature one. Wouldn't exist at all if some nurseryman in England hadn't forgotten the original name imported from Japan, so he renamed it.


May be it was the Pumilus but the name was forgotten. :)

[voodoolord]

I think this website puts the nail in the coffin for this question, or does it?

http://bamboogiant.com/html/Humilis.html

[ShmuBamboo]

I would have to assume then that Pl. gauntlettii is the same as Pl. humilis 'Pumilus'. Looking in my bamboo sources, Pl. gauntlettii is the name used in the ABS, and in the books: Bamboo for Gardens, and Hardy Bamboo. I found a reference online about Pl. gauntlettii probably being a mistaken name, but unfortunately it is already in the reference books.

Also, it seems that any mention of Pl. humilis raises issues of an invasive species that will take over the planet, and thus anyone going near the stuff is at risk of being eaten alive. And that is from some bamboo people... supposedly Ned Jaquith told a guy I know to get his Pl. humilis the (%$#@*&) out of his nursery when he was at the old location in Portland.

[voodoolord]

I think we've nailed it then. I talked to Gibs wife at tradewinds bamboo and she had mentioned a dwarf pleioblastus that went out of control there. It may have been the same one. Oh well it would have been nice if it was a plant I didnt allready have but at least we know what it is.

[ShmuBamboo]

I think this website puts the nail in the coffin for this question, or does it?

http://bamboogiant.com/html/Humilis.html

Having been to Bamboo Giant (many times) and having met the old and current owners, I would not stake all that much on their information. I believe what they have in the photo there is Pl. gauntlettii. It would seem that there are two distinct types of Pl. bamboo here, one smaller and less aggressive, and one larger/taller and more aggressive. The book Hardy Bamboos has a good description of the two species (or types) and the subtle differences.

As with a lot of bamboos, there are often times more than one name (or even genus) for the same species. For example, a lot of us think that Phy. meyer is the same as Phy. aurea 'Takemurai' (Phy. aurea w/o the shortened internodes). We think that it should be called Phy. aurea 'Takemurai' becasue it seems to us to be an aurea. In the same sence, Pl. gauntlettii may well be Pl. humilis 'Pumilus'. However, the commonly accepted species name listed is Pl. gauntlettii. Pl. humilis 'Pumilus' is not in any references or source lists that I have. Maybe someday it will be updated or corrected. My poor Candy-Stripe boo has been through several names and species and even genus changes of late.

BTW: thanks for the ID of the Pl. regardless of the species or type name.

[voodoolord]

Ok we can keep the mystery alive. Ill get my cousin to do a DNA analysis and maybe my alaskan friend can canoe over to japan and check for me. just kidding on that but your right at least we know its a Pleioblastus. Thanks for the trade (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2783) by the way.
voodoo

[ghmerrill]

Hey Shmubamboo, looks like you have one of the "mystery" boos solved. That boo is one that the nurseries down here are calling P. pumilus, but I have not found that in any books either. I recieved some from a friend who has to routinely use the weed eater on it, it is pretty rampant. he is in Coquille, OR, and it gets about 3 1/2 foot tall there. Pretty cool looking plant, except his was totaly covering then entire front yard, and had moved in on several pots that were in the yard also. guess that is the easy way to propagate! Several of the other boos I got from him had that mixed in, so when I planted them, I spend as much time as possible pulling it out of the root mass, and then still had to keep pulling up shoot for a while. Pretty plant, but definitely one to put in an area where it would be easy to controll. might look kind of neat as a ground cover underneath a larger boo like Phy. vivax.


Gene

[sasa fool]

To add to the confusion, I have plants purchased as Pl. gauntletii, Pl. pumilis, and have dug an un-ID'd plant that I was advised to call Pl. pygmaeus aff. I can discern no difference between these guys.

As if that is not confusing enough, sometimes I see photos labeled Pl. distichus that look like the above plants instead of 'ferny' as other Pl. distichus photos appear, other times I see Pl. pygmaeus photos looking 'ferny' like the Pl. distichus looks in other photos. The plant I have as Pl. distichus seems to stay fern-like and the Pl. ditcihus 'Mini' I have looks slightly unique. But...I have Pl. pygmaeus 'Ramosissimus' which is extremely 'ferny'...Now, my Pl. fortunei seedlings are solid green and shaped like these others.

I believe that I saw where the plant called Pl. pumilis in Europe is now flowering over there, so perhaps some insight will be gained from that, but I have reached the conclusion that these short green, lance leaf Pleioblastus are nearly impossible to ID from photos and I don't know what I really have.

An observation I have also made with mine is relative to propagation - I no longer make cuttings of them and grow them out in pots, they seem very slow to establish and spread that way, but if I dig a 'sod' of the same species and plant it, the difference is impressive as the sods really take off. The difference I suspect being the sods are pieces of many different rhizomes while the container cuttings are generally single rhizome ones.

The sods seem indifferent to transplant shock and I have been able to dig and transplant them immediately with only the edges showing a little stress (shovel damage, no doubt) , I generally use my foot as a guide and cut a 'square foot' of the mass around the perimeter and then get the shovel under this mass and lift it out.

[Mark Meckes]

Usually bamboo species in different genera have a unique species names.
One exception I've found is the species name - humilis = low - lowly

From American Bamboo Society Source 2007 Source List ...

Phyllostachys humilis - one of the smallest species of the genus.

Pleioblastus humilis
An attractive dwarf with dark green leaves. An agressive runner good for erosion control
Maximum Height: 2M (7ft)
Max Diameter: 8mm (0.3in.)
Minimum Temperature: -8C (0 F)
Sun/Shade: 4 (Sun=5)

Pleioblastus gauntlettii
Maximum Height: 1M (3ft)
Maximum Diameter: 8mm (0.3in.)
Minimum Temperature: -18C (0 F)
Sun/Shade: 3 (Full sun=5)
The slender dwarf culms stand stiffly erect.
Leaves about 7 inches long by 3/4 in, wide

--------

Here are excerpts from the following publications.
Note the year of publication, country etc

From Gardners Guide to TEMPERATE BAMBOOS by Michael Bell - UK, 2000 - Timber Press

Pleioblastus humilis
Maximum Height: 2M (6ft)
Maximum Diameter: 7mm (.25in.)
Minimum Temperature: -25C (-13F)
Second rate garden plant with an invasive root system, which perhaps has a place in a wild or woodland garden.
It has upright culms, usually half the stated height, and relatively large leaves of mid green. If unchecked it will soon cover a large area ...
It is a native of Japan and was introduced into Britain in the latter part of the last century.
It flowered in 1964-1967 and again over the last few years (pre 2000), and most healthy plants recovered.
The seeds are very large and conspicuous.

'Pumilus' (Pleioblastus pumilis)
"Resembles P. humilis in habit size and leaf shape.
It has entirely glabrous leaf blades (Smooth; having a surface without hairs) and some other minor distinctions that disappear when it reaches maturity, and for the horticulturist it is identical to the type plant.

'Gauntlettii' is listed by earlier writers as smaller, slower growing and less invasive, and I have seen plants that confirm this.
However when divisions from at least two different plants that showed this growth pattern were transferred into my garden, they quickly became identical to the type. Most writers class this as identical to 'Pumilis'

--------

From BAMBOOS by Christine Recht and Max F. Wetterwald (Germany) 1992 - Timber Press
(Uses some older published bamboo names in the book. No mention of Pl. humilis)

Pleioblastus pumilis (Mitford) S. Suzuki (syn. Sasa pumila)
Origin: S. Japan
Hardiness: to -23C
Leaf: 20cm (8in.) long, 2.5cm (1in.) wide
Height: 1.2M (4ft)
Spread; extremely rampant
Use: ground cover, can be mown
Culm: green, reddening in the sun, obvious ring of hairs at the node.

--------

From Ornamental Grasses by Roger Grounds (UK) 1989 - Paston Press

Pleioblastus humilis (Mitford) Nakai
It has a certain charm but it's ornamental merits are more than outweighed by it's invasiveness....
Culms 1.5M high, 3cm girth
Sheaths purple at first, soon falling.
Nodes not prominent, with white waxy bloom below, branch compliment usually 2 or 3, rarely 2.
Branches arising low on the culm.
Leaves visibly tessellated, 20 X 1.8cm, pale green above dull green below, slightly downy beneath.

Pleioblastus humilis forma humilis
A form in which the branches are borne higher up the culm, the branches being short and bushy.

Pleioblastus humilis 'Pumilis'
A form with brighter green leaves and bearded culm bases.

---------

[ShmuBamboo]

Well, if we thought that we were confused before this, look what I found in one of my bamboo books on this topic. This is from:
Hardy Bamboos Taming the Dragon by Paul Whittaker, Timber Press, 2005

<quote>

Pleioblastus 'Gauntlettii'
Hardiness: min. -18 C (0 F), zone 6
Aspect: sun or part shade
Height: 40-80 cm. (1.3-2.6 ft.), average 50 cm (1.6 ft.)
Spread: 75 cm.-1.5 m (2.5-5 ft.) in 10 years, runs slightly.
Habit: low spreading mounds.
Culms: maximum diameter 0.6 cm. (0.25 in.), green.
Leaves: pointed, 9 x 1.5 cm. (3.5 x 0.6 in.), fresh green.

I have an old plant catalog circa 1910 from the Japanese Nurseries of V. N. Gauntlett and Co., Ltd., from Chiddingfold, Surrey, England, who were responsible for propagating and distributing many of the new plants being brought into the country at that time. Pleioblastus 'Gauntlettii' was first described, and obviously named by them, but as a species of greater height than described above. This bamboo can reach 2 m (6.5 ft.) if grown without annual clippings and this was the height listed in the catalogue; perhaps because in the early years, before the First World War, bamboos were viewed as potentially woody plants and gardeners may have shown restraint in limiting their growth.
Pleioblastus humilus, with which 'Gauntlettii' is associated, was listed separately in Gauntlett's catalog as a "Japanese Dwarf" with a height of 75 cm. (2.5 ft.). This is more in keeping with the height of 'Gauntlettii' as we know it now rather than P. humilis, which grows taller. It may be that during the twentieth century these two plants have inadvertantly swapped names. Confused? Well to exacerbate the situation 'Gauntlettii' is often thought to be synonymous with Pleioblastus humilis var. pumilus, now renamed P. argenteostratus f. pulilus.
Having said all this, to most gardeners it is not the name that is important, but more the character and appearance of the plant and whether it appeals. Pleioblastus 'Gauntlettii' is a good choice; and although it offers no more than its fresh tufted greenery, it is easy to maintain, of robust quality, provides quick effect and associates well with a myriad of other plants.

Uses
Versatile in sun, shade and pots. Plant it with bright foliage or flowers or use it to edge a path.

Others
Pleioblastus humilis cannot be given equal merit, as it is particularly invasive and suitable only for areas of wilderness or large woodland. The elongated culms, meandering at all angles through anything in their path, each hold a sparse array of drooping, mid green leaves.

<end quote>

Shaking head... well, this bamboo certainly is one to examine more deeply. I think I will pot one of my 2 gallon sized Pleioblastus Gauntlettii/humilis/argenteostratus/pumilus in a big tub and see what happens. I mean with a name that long, it should be interesting. :cool:

[Mark Meckes]

(Discussion about .. Voodoo/Shmu boo trade (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2783) moved to members bamboo exchange forum.)

Amusingly, in relation to identifying this plant, and it's purported growth habit ...

gauntlet - a glove
... from dict.com thesaurus ...
be a target : be a whipping boy : come to grips with : court disaster : face criticism : face one's punishment : go in harms way : go through fire and water : march up to the cannon's mouth : meet head-on : take on'e's life in one's hands : take the bull by the horn's

This discussion has inspired me to tackle this this tangent thread: ID? Pleioblastus humilis 'Variegatus'? (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2785)

Pleioblastus humilis 'Variegatus'? - Pennsylvania/New Jersey border
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/801/thumbs/PlchvagDurPA92-002.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3394) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/801/thumbs/PlchvagFRPA940611-001.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3393)
Due to winter dieback in a Zone 6-ish 0F climate it never achieved optimum height.
Many years ago someone had planted this in their dwarf conifer/rock garden.
After it had spread throughout the garden I was asked to eradicate it.
Great plant! It provided me with "job security" for some time as it lead to a complete makeover of the owners garden.
He had got it as a Pleioblastus argentoestriatus, then someone ID'd it as Pleioblastus chino vaginatus 'Variegatus' but now I think it must have been Pl. humilis 'Variegatus'

(Will begin a new thread on Pleioblastus chino > cultivars ... another genus of culmfounding :confused: culmplexity :eek:! )

Mark

[ShmuBamboo]

As if that is not confusing enough, sometimes I see photos labeled Pl. distichus that look like the above plants instead of 'ferny' as other Pl. distichus photos appear, other times I see Pl. pygmaeus photos looking 'ferny' like the Pl. distichus looks in other photos. The plant I have as Pl. distichus seems to stay fern-like and the Pl. ditcihus 'Mini' I have looks slightly unique. But...I have Pl. pygmaeus 'Ramosissimus' which is extremely 'ferny'...Now, my Pl. fortunei seedlings are solid green and shaped like these others.

Hmmmm. I have a pair of Pl. distichus, or so I thought. Voodoo looked at them and said they do not look like his Pl. distichus. I got mine from my brother who got them from Ned at Bamboo Garden (usually reliable). The Dwarf Fern Leafs certainly do not look anything like my little Pl. gauntlettii/.../.../pumilus. More stubby leaves bunched up more at the end of the culms. Denser leaves too.

Pleioblastus insaneicus. After all this, I am thinking I will stick to Phyllostachys maddness.

[Mark Meckes]

Pleioblastus humilis, in reference to bamboo ID'ology could aptly be described as ... to be given a humbling dose of humility.
May it have the last laugh!

The following is quoted from the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew - Grassbase:
http://www.kew.org/data/grasses-db/www/imp00980.htm
by W.D. Clayton, K.T. Harman & H. Williamson

Arundinaria humilis

HABIT Perennial. Rhizomes elongated; leptomorph. Culms erect; 100–200 cm long; 4–7 mm diam.; woody. Culm-internodes terete; thin-walled; distally glabrous. Culm-nodes glabrous, or pubescent. Lateral branches lacking, or sparse. Culm-sheaths glabrous. Leaf-sheaths pilose. Leaf-sheath oral hairs setose; pale. Ligule an eciliate membrane, or a ciliolate membrane. Leaf-blade base with a brief petiole-like connection to sheath. Leaf-blades deciduous at the ligule; lanceolate; 15–25 cm long; 15–25 mm wide. Leaf-blade surface glabrous, or pilose; sparsely hairy; hairy adaxially. Leaf-blade apex acuminate

See link above for details of inflorescence

-------

The question arises ... why is it still listed by it's "former genus name" - Arundinaria?

Kew Gardens is known as one of the worlds most authorative resources for bamboo identification, and yet, upon browsing the list of bamboo species within the loooooong list of Grass species listed here ...
http://www.kew.org/data/grasses-db/sppindex.htm
It will be noticed that numerous bamboo species have not been changed over to the latest "accepted" name.

:confused:

Mark