Mothball and vinegar treatment for powder post beetles?

[asnor69]

I have tried using moth balls and vinegar. It works. All the
powder post beetle in the bamboo were flushed out of the infected
bamboo or products. The thing that irritates me is seeing all the
flushed powder post beetle spread around the infected bamboo and lying
dead. Small and adults alike.

There must be some humane way.

For those who want to try the method, here's how I did it. Take two
mothballs. Put them in a plastic bag and repeatedly pound them until
the mothballs turn into powder. Then put them in a container that can
hold 500ml of liquid. Add 10ml of vinegar and 450ml of water. Shake
well. Then, spray the liquid on the infected bamboo especially the
infected area. Within one half hour, you can see the powder post
beetle start coming out of the bamboo even at places where the holes
were not visible. In the next hour, you can find black, yellow, beige
and transparent powder post beetle start falling down from the
infested bamboo.

I am not encouraging anybody to try, but if any biochemist that have
tried other method which is more humane, kindly let me know.

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Asnor,
A little Google search for mothballs finds that in one type, the main ingredient is naphthalene, and in the other it is paradichlorobenzene.

I have no idea what chemical is produced by mixing vinegar with mothballs!

~ Mark

[tharlow]

I wonder about the lethality of that concoction. I think there's a guy on the bamboo plantations list who is a chemist. I'm going to search for him off the list and pass along this recipe for comment off list.

--Tom

[Mark Meckes]

Asnor69, what type of vinegar is used? There are different types and concentrations.

From ... The Vinegar Institute (http://www.versatilevinegar.org/)
* Malt vinegar, made by the two-fold fermentation of barley malt or other cereals where starch has been converted to maltose.
* Sugar vinegar, made by the two-fold fermentation of solutions of sugar syrup or molasses.
* Spirit or distilled vinegar, made by the acetic fermentation of dilute distilled alcohol.
----------------------

Here's some basic stuff about mothballs from the internet ...
From ... Newton- Ask a scientist (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01450.htm)
Question - What property of paradichlorobenzene makes it an effective ingredient in mothballs?
-----------------------
Paradichlorobenzene (a chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon) is not the stuff of which moth balls are made.
Paradichlorobenzene is referred to as "moth crystals."
Moth balls are composed of naphthalene, which is a also an aromatic hydrocarbon. "
Aromaticity" in this context refers to molecular structure, not odor -- although both compounds have powerful odors.

Under room temperature conditions, these solid chemical compounds have a relatively high vapor pressures.
They can sublime directly from the solid to the gaseous state without melting during the phase change.
When they do, they displace oxygen from confined spaces.
Thus, one of their insecticidal properties is that of suffocation -- they deprive bugs of air.
Also, their chemistry is incompatible with living systems -- they are toxic.

Regards,
ProfHoff 738
==============================================

From ... Madsci.org ... What ingredients are in mothballs? (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/894550073.Gb.r.html)

"Recently a species of termite from southeast Asia was found to excrete low levels of naphthalene. The termites themselves are not bothered by it, but ants (the termites' main predator) are strongly repelled by the naphthalene in the termite nests. Here's a quote from the BBC article:
The Formosan subterranean termite, Coptotermes formosanus, mixes [naphthalene] into the soil and chewed-up wood which it uses to insulate the complex of tunnels in which it lives.

The fumes are thought to keep away the termite's natural enemies such as ants, poisonous fungi and nematode worms.

Scientists are mystified as to how the termites incorporate naphthalene into their nests and why they themselves are not affected by.

They carried out tests on one of the subterranean termite's greatest enemies, Solenopsis invicta, or fire ant and found the ants were immobilised at concentration levels that had no visible effect on the termites."

[asnor69]

Hello again,

The type of vinegar used is the sugar vinegar. The changing agent is Acetic acid. Thinking about it, the vinegar penetrates into the bamboo while the changing agent has not been fully utilised and assimilated into the vinegar. The changing agent then started working on the starch in the bamboo walls. The moth balls provides the suffocating fumes. Not much left to eat of the starch in the bamboo walls and the suffocating fumes forces the powder post beetle out of their holes.

I am still waiting for chemists in the bamboo forum to explain or discover the resulting chemical in the mixture of moth balls and vinegar. I would like to know as well. The ancient Malay folks used vinegar to preserve their bamboo slates.

Nevertheless, I am also hoping that anyone can help me find an alternative to the mixture in the fight against powder post beetle.

Thanks.

[Angel]

Since I read such a recipe to combat the PPB, I'll look around in my workshop to find an attacked piece of bamboo to try it. I just found one, will try and report the results.
Would it works as preventive?
I normally use trementine for that, but it would be better.

[tharlow]

I wanted to get the take of someone with a chemistry background, and Geoff was good enough to reply my query on that list. He raises some good concerns.--Tom

Subject: Re: [bamboo-plantations] Questions re: Mothball and vinegar treatment on other list


Tom Harlow wrote ... I've been following a discussion on the bamboocraft
list about using mothballs and vinegar to treat powder post beetles. I am
hoping someone on this list with relevant expertise might comment on the
safety and likely effectiveness of this remedy.

[To which Geoff Kyle replied]

Here is the text of a personal reply I made to Tom. It might be of interest
to the group.

My background is in water and mineral chemistry. I have a working knowledge
of organic chemistry, but am a long way from guruhood. Here is my
two-penneth worth.

Napthalene is distilled coal tar camphor. Its structure is based on the
aromatic benzene ring. Its use in insecticides is decreasing in favour of
chlorinated aromatics such as the other compound mentioned,
p-dichlorobenzene. Napthalene is listed as toxic. A Material Safety Data
Sheet is available from the manufacturer.

p-Dichlorobenzene is another chlorinated aromatic based on the benzene ring.
It is listed as toxic. An MSDS is available from the manufacturer.

Both chemicals are volatile and sublime to vapours at ordinary temperatures.

Neither chemical is soluble in either water or vinegar. (Vinegar is 4% v/v
Acetic Acid in water.)

My guess as to what is happening in this mixture is that pounding the stuff
produces very fine particulates that are easily dispersed - rather than
dissolved - in the water/vinegar mixture. Thus, the spray actually applies a
slurry of the chemicals. When the water/vinegar carrier evaporates, the tiny
crystals of chemical adhere to the surface and poison the insects.

If that guess is correct, the spray will deposit chemical onto everything it
touches - including human body surfaces. The effects of that are best
acsertained from the MSDS sheets attached.

Another problem is that of disposal. What does one do with the remnants and
residues? A good question that is not often considered by enthusiastic
amateurs who splash potentially environmentally damaging chemicals around
the place with gay abandon. That foolishness is a product of our greedy
consumerist economic systems. Somewhere there is a trader who will sell us
anything for money. People say, "Well, the bloke at the shop said it was
OK". Yeah, right. For how long did those same corporate entities tell us
that DDT, thalidomide and asbestos were safe? What is missing in the money
economy is any sense of personal responsibility and concern for the
sustainability of our planet. People prefer to make money - or preserve
their bamboo - and don't care if that trashes the planet and leaves their
children to survive in a toxic and disintegrating environment.

A classic example is the common use in north America of glycols of various
atomic weights as a bamboo preservative. This stuff is highly toxic to
humans and the environment, but I saw many posts to Bamboo Plantations
advocating its use as safe and highly efficient. Maybe it is efficient, but
it is certainly not safe. After the bamboo timber has been preserved with
glycol it looks great for a while, but soon the glycol begins to separate
itself from the bamboo and migrates into the surrounding atmosphere where it
represents a toxin. This also happens with some of the resins used in
laminated bamboo boards. If you ever sit in a brand new car, do not breathe.
The plastics are impregnated with plasticisers that keep the dashboard and
so on from cracking in the sun. But the plasticisers are toxic and migrate
out of the plastic matrix as vapours. You can even buy a bottle of stuff
that makes your car smell new. And people have been convinced that this is
both desireable and safe. It sells like hotcakes in Australia, and people
make money. But at what expense?

I have no personal experience of the recommended mixture, but have some with
chlorinated aromatics. On that basis, I would recommend that the treatment
is dangerous in two respects:

1. Human health. If this mixture must be used, personal protection equipment
and a well-ventillated area in which to do the job are essential. I'd use a
chemical mask, as the simple particle-exclusion masks only stop
particulates. It'll take a chemical cannister mask to stop the vapours. I'd
also use elbow-length plastic gloves, safety glasses, and some form of
air-blower to sweep the vapours away from the job. At home, I use a large
pedestal fan, of the type used by panel and paint workshops, when I mix
volatile chemicals. When I was a working chemist, I would have used a proper
fume hood.

2. Environmental concerns. See disposal above. It is worth noting that the
class to which p-dichlorobenzene belongs has become a blight on the earth.
Members of this class include DDT and the dioxins. Chlorinated hydrocarbons
are found in almost everything everywhere nowadays - for example in breast
milk!

Disposal is a difficult matter on which I am not qualified to advise you. If
it was me considering using this method - I wouldn't!

Another point to note is the post hoc nature of the treatment. It treats
bamboo that is already infected. There scarcely seems to be a point in that.

For my money, the most appropriate method is vertical soak diffusion using a
borax solution. See www.bamboocentral.org.

At any rate, I hope this helps.

Regards from Darwin River, (S12, E130),

Geoff Kyle.

[asnor69]

Thank you for your lengthy explanation of the mixture and the hazards it posts on the powder post beetle as well as the user of the mixture.

Kindly advise/ elaborate on the alternative option as I need to use something that is cost effective and available here in Malaysia. I earn my living making bamboo furniture. Increase in cost is the last thing on my mind.

Regards
Abu

[Mark Meckes]

Tom, thanks for trying to find more info on this subject.
And Abu, very good of you to address this issue.

The comments provided by Geoff does not make it any clearer as to whether acetic acid, the ingredient in vinegar, reacts with naphthalene or paradichlorobenzene and if so, what is the outcome or chemicals produced by the reaction.

This discussion was never refuting that mothballs are not toxic, in fact Abu clearly asked for safer alternatives ...

But inquiring minds would like to know ... what does the above mix produce?

Another unknown about the mix is concentration of acetic acid ...
In the US, household food grade vinegars may range up to 4 or 5% acetic acid, but they are also available up to 25% concentration as a weed killer.

See ... USE OF VINEGAR AS A HERBICIDE (http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/aginfo/entomology/ndsucpr/Years/2002/July/18/weeds_18July02.htm)

Geoff also says ...
"Another point to note is the post hoc nature of the treatment. It treats
bamboo that is already infected. There scarcely seems to be a point in that."

Well, I can't imagine this procedure would be used in large scale treatments, but rather to treat a finished cherished item that had evidence of PPB. I've read of much more deadly concoctions by museum artifact conservators.

Personally, I can't stand the smell of moth balls.
As a youngster, back in the 50's/60's when my family was shipped off numerous times to distant lands, all our clothing and trunks of goods was lavishly layered with moth balls. I grew up in an atmosphere thick with the aroma of mothballs. Considering the toxicology reports and other self inflicted bodily abuses, I should have croaked long ago!

From www.pesticideinfo.org ...

Identification, toxicity, use, water pollution potential, ecological toxicity and regulatory information of the following:
Naphthalene (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35114)

Para-dichlorobenzene (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35121)

Acetic acid (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32883)

It may be best to begin New Threads to discuss other methods of treating bamboo.

~ Mark

[tharlow]

Actually Geoff's reply suggests that the vinegar and water are not reacting with the mothball, as it's not soluble in those. I've also asked a chemistry professor and an entomology professor specifically whether mothballs would react with vinegar or water. They too believed the insecticidal properties were directly attributable to the mothballs and that the liquids merely provided a means of delivery.

Regarding a safer alternative Geoff gave a link to the Bamboo Central where one can find a manual describing the procedures necessary to employ the vertical soak diffusion method to preserve bamboo using borax and boric acid. Start up may not be cheap, but you can increase quality and perhaps become a supplier of preserved bamboo to other furniture producers. The manual actually gives cost estimates based on its development in Bali.

Here is a more direct link to the English version:
http://www.bamboocentral.org/index1.htm

It's also available in Indonesian and Portuguese.
http://www.bamboocentral.org/index1.htm
Click on treatment manual for the other languages.

--Tom

[Mark Meckes]

Tom, my question is ... does acetic acid react with Naphthalene or Para-dichlorobenzene?

I know for instance that even though rubbing alcohol is alcohol and water, one can still feel the affects of the alcohol.

Comments so far appear only as suggestions about the reaction with vinegar.

Here's some info from http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu about


ACETIC ACID and ACETIC ANHYDRIDE (http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/AceticAcid/AceticAcid.html)

Re: alternative treatments, for the benefit of countless people coming to this site looking for info on bamboo treatments, there's no point in scrunching everything into this Mothball / Vinegar treatment thread.

Your most helpful info about VSD has been split into this New Thread:
Vertical Soak Diffusion - Borax Treatment for bamboo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1556)

[Mark Meckes]

Interesting uses of vinegar in this article - The Wonderful World of Vinegar (http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/node/372) By Linda Gabris, that recommend it's

- powerful detoxifying and purifying agent.
- acetic acid in vinegar helps the body break down and digest rich, fatty (insoluble?) food.
- Also rids mothball odour.

... Could the original formulator of the moth ball/vinegar recipe also had some other uses in mind for this recipe ... besides ridding intestinal parasites of bamboo? ;)

~ Mark

[asnor69]

The idea came about when I used the formulation to nurse wounds of cattle. Even deep wounds with maggots young and old alike are flushed out when came in contact with this formula. The difference is that the formulation is boiled before being applied to the wound. Minutes after application, the maggots will be rushing out of the wound.

Thought it might work on PPB, . Well it did albeit my dissatisfaction of the humanity of the procedure.

[franklina]

AFTER THE SPRAYING DID WAS THE BAMBOO RESISTANT TO BEETLES FOR A LONG TIME ? IF YES FOR HOW LONG COS I HAVE TRIED IT AND WITHIN A WEEK THE BETTLES CAME BACK.