Pleioblastus hindsii (?) PI#75147 flowering

[Denko]

Mark, I got a plant from you in PA, Pleioblastus hindsii, USDA intro # 75147.
According to Jordan Meredith this is not a hindsii - Would anyone know the true identity?

The plant is going into bloom. Maybe that would be of help.

John Mortensen

[Mark Meckes]

Hi John,
I remember when you came by, a number of years ago.
That plant was obtained from Plot B10 at the Bamboo Germplasm Repository, Byron Georgia in 1993.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the identity is `correct'. There are several other plants in the collection that have been renamed.
I was there several months ago.. will look for pics.
Do you have any photos of your `Pleioblastus hindsii' ?

In Pennsylvania this plant never reached the 15 ft optimum height, growing more like a shrubby ground cover.
How has yours fared?

Mark

[paulineisaachsen]

Hi Mark
It is an unfortunate thing that Pleioblastus hindsii is described in that genera. It really should be a Semiarundinaria for the relative closeness to those varieties.
The species reaches 15ft here, and in spite of its reputation, being kept to a cool area it has not spread more than 20m (65ft) in 65 years. I'm still looking for a use for it. Large leaves make it a good winter supplement for horses in winter. Though weak in the stem it is quite an attractive plant.
Pauline

[Mark Meckes]

Of the hundreds of pics I took on my Feb '05 trip I have only one photo of Pleioblastus hindsii.
As shown below it is in quite a decline, and as you mention probably due to heavy flowering.
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/Pl-hindsiiBGA-B10-050216-566.jpg See larger pic (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1100)
Pleioblastus hindsii (syn Arundinaria) PI#75147
Plot B10, USDA Bamboo germplasm Repository, Byron Ga USA

Unfortunately I didn't take a close look at this planting.
I may have some photos from yesteryear, but am too busy to look for and scan them right now.

If you or anyone has any Pleioblastus hindsii pics you're welcome to upload them into the category Pleioblastus hindsii (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=549) at BambooFlora,
(300K max per pic) or into this thread.(See - Uploading Image attachments into Forum Posts (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1298))

[Denko]

Thank you. It is a shrub here too - max about 3'
I will upload pictures when the new shoots are more developed (froze to ground last winter).

Speaking of "freeze": I am surprised to find Pl simonii (almost) fully hardy here (NY). Never any cane damage!

[Mark Meckes]

Hi John and Pauline,
A google search of Pleioblastus hindsii comes up with a lot of links with images, and though some of them appear to have differing leaf widths, they certainly appear different to Pl.hindsii PI # 75147.

Ted Jordan Meredith comments, in his book - Bamboo for Gardens , Page 341...

"Identification of the species is somewhat muddled. In the United States and England, and probably elsewhere, other bamboos have long ago been erroneously introduced as Pleioblastus hindsii.
One example that I have seen reportedly originated from USDA plant introduction number (PI #) 75147. Presumably other then the authentic item, its leaves were wider, thin and pliable rather than thick and leathery, and far less erect. This particular "hindsii" seems rather dull, with modest horticultural merit - a considerable contrast from other, presumably authentic examples."

There are no pictures of Pleioblastus hindsii in this book.

-------------
Good news... I will be able to discuss Pl.hindsii' PI#75147 with Mike Hotchkiss (who works at the Byron Station) this weekend!
See this thread (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1290) about the TBS May Fest at Mercer Arboretum, Humble, (near Houston) Texas.

John wrote...
> I will upload pictures when the new shoots are more developed (froze to ground last winter).

Photos of any and all stages of life and death, from winter frazzled to detailed shoot development and flowering will be most welcome, as they may be crucial in helping to determine the identity of this species, and for observing it's growth characteristics in varying climates and conditions.

We will probably eventually end up creating two distinct gallery categories (and other threads) to reference these two main types of "hindsii".

Glad to hear that (hopefully), your flowering bamboo is still producing new shoots. The Pl. hindsii at Byron look pretty dismal.
Often cold weather, and clear-cutting can induce a profileration of new, albiet smaller sized shoots.

Mark

Good to hear about your Pleioblastus simonii being a tough cold hardy plant!
What min Temp did you experience this last winter?

[Mark Meckes]

BTW When I was at Byron in 1993, Pl. hindsii PI#75147 was growing no higher then the dead bamboo shown in the picture - about 2-3ft/60-90 cm (?), and as these plots had `minimal maintenance' till now, what is shown in that first picture is probably 12 years accumulation of growth and decline.
The soil in this portion of the repository was sandy and appeared lacking in nutrients, so I always presumed that was one reason for little growth.

Mark

[green99]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Tropicallvr/P.jpg

Here is my P.hindsii, but it sounds like it is a lot different than the other ones going around. It has small tesselated leathery leaves, and grows huge in very small pots. The only other bamboo that does that (grows big in small pot) for me is Semiarundinaria fastuosa.
Just found this site, it's great!

[Denko]

I uploaded 3 pictures. Maybe they will help with the final ID of this plant.
John

Pleiobalstus hindsii PI#75147 - Flowering spikes

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsii1sm2.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1152&cat=549&ppuser=1133) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsii2sm.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1153&cat=549&ppuser=1133) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsii2sm.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1155&cat=549&cat=549&ppuser=1133)

[Mark Meckes]

Thanks for showing your photos!
I haven't seen either of these species growing nearby, so I can't help with pics.

green99 your pic looks similar to what is widely called Pleioblastus hindsii, with culms a burnished color from direct exposure to sunrays.
- A coloration that also occurs with Semiarundinaria fastuosa ( http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=2).

These hindsii definitely appear to be different species.


Also two categories in Gallery Bamboo Flora have been designated to show hindsii pics.
Pleioblastus hindsii ( http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=563) Photo Gallery and
Pleioblastus hindsii (?) USDA PI# 75147 (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=549) Photo Gallery

Notes
USDA records have this bamboo listed in the Genus Arundinaria.
Many bamboo species that were originally listed as Arundinaria have been changed over to other Genera.
The Genus AND the species name for this bamboo is unclear.

The following info shows the ascensions of Arundinaria hindsii that were introduced into the USA through the USDA many years ago.
(Ref. American Bamboo Society Journal Vol 1 #1 - 1980)

Arundinaria hindsii Munro PI# 9057 ; PI# 38914 ; PI# 81725

Arundinaria hindsii Munro var. graminea Mitf. PI# 9058 ; PI# 75147 ; PI# 89700

John, I've read that taxonomists sometimes need to take a close look at flowering parts to determine a bamboo's identity.
But I have no idea if anyone is giving the ID of this bamboo any attention as it has been relegated horticulturally as a somewhat nondescript bamboo.
Or maybe it's already been resolved !?
But if you feel like drying and preserving a flowering stem, you never know, it might be needed one day.
There's also the unknown element as to whether it produces any viable seeds.

See if you can get a close up pic of the flowering parts.

I use a poster board with dark fabric taped over it that I carry around and put behind the plant / part.
Having a dark background seems to help my digital camera focus better.

Mark

[paulineisaachsen]

Hi Mark

Here is a pic of our P. hindsii
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/563/thumbs/hindsii_spec.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1156)

We also have S. fastuosa so the difference is distinguishable. They came to us direct from Kew back in the 1940's and are fairly consistent with descriptions. It has not flowered to my knowledge... This grove grows in a fairly shaded area so hasn't moved much. The longest stems are almost 5m, to be expected in shade. Perhaps leaving the name as an Arunduinaria till a more informed time might have been best.
Pauline

[green99]

It looks like there is at least 3 types floating around with the same name( if the small flowering one is different than the last one pictured)
It does look like a Semiarundinaria! It also doesn't look like it has persistant culm sheaths.

[Mark Meckes]

- We need to see how this same bamboo (PI# 75147) is performing in another warmer location where the top growth is not winter killed. Bamboo can have a very different look if it's annually sheared to near ground level.

Re: Name change... Let's keep it this way just a bit longer and see if any more light is shed on PI#75147, then see what we think.

Meanwhile this Thread Title can be
ID? Pleioblastus (Arundinaria?) hindsii PI#75147
and we'll keep hindsii photo gallery cats together for easier referencing till we clear this muddle up.

Disclaimers!
I know little about the hindsiis' and Yep, I told John this plant was a Pleioblastus, not Arundinaria way back when he got it from me, even though it was listed as A. hindsii.
What was my reasoning?
I was relying on the literature I had read at the time, and the American Bamboo Society Source List, which lists more then 400 species cultivars and forms growing in the US.
There was no mention / no sources for A. hindsii, only Pl. hindsii

Though it is most certain that John's hindsii was propagated from plot B10 at Byron, there's always the possibility that it is a misnamed species They plants were moved here around 1980, many from the Savannah station, and since that time there has been little to no programs and minimal funding provided to maintain this collection.

Since my visit of 1993, a few of the plot/species names have been corrected or changed to reflect the latest `Western' consensus.
However, for example, what most now know as Pleioblastus simonii and Pleioblastus viridistriatus are labeled as Arundinaria simonii and Arundinaria viridistriata.

So either ...
- records may need updating, or
- the sorting of names of Arundinaria and Pleioblastus is still being disputed by the experts (?)

----------------------------------------

A bamboo name sorting website

MULTILINGUAL MULTISCRIPT PLANT NAME DATABASE

Sorting Arundinaria names (http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Arundinaria.html)

Sorting Pleioblastus names (http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Pleioblastus.html#gramineus)

--------------
They both lead to this info for hindsii species:

Pleioblastus hindsii (Munro) Nakai (OHRN, Wang)

SYNONYM(S) : Arundinaria hindsii Munro (Wang), Nipponocalamus hindsii Munro , Pseudosasa hindsii (Munro) C.D. Chu & C.S. Chao (GRIN)

---------------

Pleioblastus gramineus (Bean) Nakai (GRIN, OHRN)

SYNONYM(S) : Arundinaria graminea (Bean) Makino (GRIN), Nipponocalamus gramineus Nakai

JAPANESE : Taimin chiku, Taimin chiku, Taimin chiku.

KOREAN : Dae myong jook (as Arundinaria graminea).

---------------

Pleioblastus gramineus (Bean) Nakai 'Rasetsu'

SYNONYM(S) : Arundinaria simonii var. monstrosa Onume ex Schröter, Pleioblastus gramineus (Bean) Nakai f. monstrispiralis (Y. Okada) Muroi & H. Hamada ex Muroi & H. Okamura

JAPANESE : Rasetsu chiku, Rasetsu chiku.

--------------------------------------------
Note - the American Bamboo Society Source List has this as ...

Pleioblastus gramineus `Monstrispiralis'

-- Mark

[Denko]

Mark, I can get flowers (or pictures of ) -or plants- to you or anyone that want to/can look into this. It was only this last winter the plant really froze down. Usually it stays at about 3 ft.

I will post closeup of flowers soon.

[paulineisaachsen]

I can't tell, but if the leaf has a little twist in it it could likely be Pleioblastus graminea or Taimin chiku. Kanzan chiku, the Japanese P. hindsi Nakai, is supposed to be different to the Chinese P. hindsi Munro (after R B Hinds) which is now endorsed by C S Chao as a Pseudosasa. Its supposed to have persistent sheaths. Ours does not. In 1989 he commented that the correct name for the Japanese species was uncertain.
Pauline

[Denko]

Four new photos uploaded. Hopefully they will be of help.

Pleioblastus (Arundinaria?) hindsii PI#75147 - flowering

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsiiFl6.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1158&cat=549&ppuser=1133) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsii4.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1159&cat=549&ppuser=1133) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsiiFl12.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1160&cat=549&ppuser=1133) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/549/thumbs/hindsiiFl8.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1161&cat=549&ppuser=1133)

BTW this plant seems to be quite a runner. New shoots suddenly coming up now more than 15' from original plant.

[Mark Meckes]

Great photos John! Yes, my plant had very adventurous rhizomes.I had to root prune it annually to keep it from crossing the pathway.

Q. Is it possible to determine the Genus of this plant by the flowering parts?

This is how Pleioblastus and Arundinaria flowers are differentiated in the book ...

Ornamental Grasses by Roger Grounds 1989 - ISBN 0-7470-1219-9

Bamboos Chapter 6

ARUNDINARIA Michaux
Inflorescence racemose or paniculate, but occasionally reduced to a single spikelet.
Spikelets many flowered with 1 - 3 glumes; stamens 3; stigmas 3

PLEIOBLASTUS Nakai
Inflorescence a spike or raceme; stamens 3 ; stigmas 3

[Mark Meckes]

Hi John (Denko),
Is your hindsii still flowering?
Did it get killed backed this last winter and has it got any taller this year?

Upload any progressive pics if you have any.

Thanks,
Mark

To green99,
Your pic linked to photobucket was deleted or moved. (post #8)
If you still have the pics you can edit/upload them as attachment or at the Pleioblastus (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=513) Gallery