Phyllostachys (viridiglaucescens?)-help identify

[vigli]

Hi !
I'm first time in this forum and for the start one big HELLO from me to You and all bamboo-person and from the all world.
I live in Macedonia, EUROPE. Little bit north from the Greece. Summers are hot /40 celsius/and winters a cold /-20 Celsius/.
I have few bamboo bamboo planted on the ground.
One is Phyllostachys aurea, Pseudosasa japonica.
I have one more Phyllostachys which I don't know which species it is.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Bamboo1.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2290) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Bamboo2.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2289) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Bamboo3.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2288)
It grows around 8-10 meters, around 3-4 cm culm size. I take a plant from one little woods/old one/ of that kind of bamboo and I'm not sure is this maximum size of the plant because the soil there is pretty dry, so maybe the bamboo has more capacity to grow.
Any way bamboo has fimbri on the young shoots and on the mature culm.
It is shooting in the midle of the april. Mature culms are very strong on the cold weather.
Shoots are on the touch hmmm how to say hmmmmm,....all with tiny short hair /it is not Ph. pubescens/-those little hair don't iritate the skin. The shoots are excellent for eating, no bitter taste.
The shoots are a dark color when there are very young. I have some photos, I will try to send.
Hope this will help for the determination.
Thanks a lot.
Boris

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris, it's good to hear about your bamboo growing in Macedonia! Thanks for writing in and posting your pics.

Before I guess what your Phyllostachys species is, a couple questions...

Do shoots of this species emerge before or after Phyllostachys aurea?

Do new culms have a white powdery coating, or are they a clear green with no white coating?

Mark

[Mark Meckes]

One of the early Phyllostachys species to emerge here in Central Texas, (April) is Phyllostachys elegans. (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=545)
They appear darker in color like your pics, when they first emerge.
They begin to appear early, before our Phyllostachys aurea emerges.

Mark

[vigli]

Hi thanks a lot for reply.
Yes they emerge from the soil earlier then the Ph aurea.
Yes they have white waxy power on the young culm and it disappears by gentle touch with finger. The link You sent me has similar shoots. It is very similar but the leaves on the shoot of my bamboo are not so curved as on the picture on your link. They are just a little curved when the shoot is 20-30 cm big. But when it start to elongate there are later almost flat.
Hope this will help.
Also young culm has open green, neon color, with white waxy color on the lower node and dark color on the uper node, the same as on the photo on the link You sent me. Very very nice.
Thanks

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris,

That's right, the sheath blade is crinkled when it first emerges, but as the shoot gets higher the sheath blades do become straight.

The internode lengths of this species do not get very long.
On a 1 1/2" (4cm) diameter, the longest internode length is 9" (23cm)

New established culms stand straight and tall mostly.

Yes, we had our first (runaway) shoots from our planting this spring. They were delicious! (Have pics somewhere)

This is a very vigorous plant! Ours is only on it's 3rd year from planting, and has traveled more then 15 ft (5 meters).
It does well in our hot dry Texas climate, but like you said, if it does not get any extra water or if the soil is poor, it stays much smaller in size.

It is just co-incidence that we have both Phyllostachys elegans and Phyllostachys aurea in our garden.
Other species that I thought maybe your bamboo could be was P. dulcis or P. viridiglaucescens ...

Do you have any pictures of the older grove where you got your plant?

Mark

[vigli]

Hi Mark.
Thanks for the reply.
I was thinking it is Ph. viridiglaucescens. I didn’t think it is Ph. Elegans until you sent me your thinking.
I take this plant with big root system /about 60 lb/ . First year it shoot with 1/3 inch culm size. But this spring I was very surprised with with culm of 1 and 1/3 inch size of the biggest culm. I left the biggist young culm /around 10 of them/ which are now in faze of extending and all new much smaller new shoot I remove because I don’t wont bamboo too look like congest ticket or to look bushy. So I left place for the biggest culm and leaves from that culm to adsorb maximum light.
This weekend I take a few photos too but soon I will made photos in the photo store. So if I have some good shots I will scan them.
Please check does Your Ph. elegans has short hair on the sheats on the young culm/turion/? I think it is very carcteristic for this species. Thanks a lot.
Yes on my bamboo nodes are close one to each other closer to the ground, as You said which give it nice look.
I have one bamboo too which I took from the mediteran before 1 year.
See thread Phyllostachys species ID? - Mediteran Botanic Garden, Croatia (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1276)

Thanks a lot on time.
Please check if you can, does your Ph elegans have short hair on the sheaths. Thanks.
Best wishes.
Boris

[vigli]

Hi.
Here are more photos.
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Phyllostachys-B1.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2287) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Phyllostachys-B2.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2286) http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/648/thumbs/Phyllostachys-B3.jpg See photo (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2285)

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris,
I am still not 100% sure this is Phyllostachys elegans.
My problem is that I have never seen first hand, P. viridiglaucescens shoots, which as you said is the other possibility (?).


See Gallery of Phyllostachys elegans (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showgallery.php?cat=545) at Bamboo Flora.

Have a look at these key features of Phyllostachys elegans and see if your bamboo is the same:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/P-elegansAuTX050509-287.jpg see larger pic (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1054)
Leaves are pubescent (not shiny), on under side. These are fresh new leaves.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/P-elegansAuTX050509-288.jpg see larger pic (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1052)
Upright growth habit of leaf stems on branches. This is a new branch from a new culm - not many new leaves yet.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/P-elegansBGA050509-283.jpg see larger pic (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1049)
Culm sheath sparsely strewn with fine hairs. Photo of a dried culm sheath I collected in 1993/ Byron Georgia USA.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/thumbs/PelegansATX050409-020.jpg see larger pic (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=1034)
Culm surface ribbed-striate. Fine groove lines on the surface of a new culm

There are other key indicators but let's start with these.

Cheers, Mark

[vigli]

Hi.
I was checking my Ph "elegans" and it has no pubescent leaves on the mature culm. There are glossy on the both side!
It has only pubescent sheet leaves.
I think that I read somewere that Ph viridiglaucescens has pubescent leaves, as your bamboo has
Maybe Your bamboo is Ph. viridiglaucescens? Hmmm
My Ph."elegans "shooting right now. one culm is 3 cm /the bigest size /and it is elogate very high. I think it will reach 8 m, maybe more. Now it has 6 meters!!!
Also when the culm sheet start it getting away from the culm, culm color is open green with a purple dark color on some places which are disappear with time.
Stay in touch.
best wishes
Boris

[Mark Meckes]

Hi, Boris, I am 99% sure that what I have is Phyllostachys elegans.

Here are some excerpts from McClure's 'Bamboo of the Genus Phyllostachys' under cultivation in the United States. Agricultural Handbook - 1957

"P.elegans is set off rather clearly from other species of the Genus Phyllostachys by the relatively small, lance-shaped leaf blades that are generally more densely pubescent on the lower surface than most species."

"In general appearance of the culm sheaths, P. elegans resembles P.viridiglaucescens with which it was earlier confused."

P. viridiglaucescens has...
- a longer ligule on the culm sheaths,
- longer, differently shaped and nearly glabrous leaf blades
- perfectly smooth culm internodes without a sign of striation.

Glossary:
ligule : see attachment (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=201)

glabrous: Smooth, having a surface without hairs,

striation: A number of small parallel grooves (along the culm internode)

Please check to see if your bamboo has striations on the culm internode.

Mark

[vigli]

Hi Mark.
Well OK. So Ph elegans has hair under the leaf blades as Yours has. OK.

Surface of the culm of my bamboo is perfectly glossy and smooth. No striation on the culm.
Leaf blades are without hair on the bouth side but culm sheat are with hair.
From the difference between Your and my bamboo. I think my is Ph Viridiglaucescens.
Why not elegans?
Because leaf blades are without hair on the lower surface, culm is smooth, turion is very similar with Ph elegans with hair and only ph viridiglaucescent has that kind of turion similarity.
At the end we find the differens between our bamboo which were most important for the determination.
What is Your thinking?
Thanks a lot for help.
Boris
PS
Do You have idea which species is bamboo fom botanic garden from mediteran/photos which I sent to forum, If not do You have some contact or mail of some who could help for determinaton.
Thanks a lot for determination of bamboo in my garden :)

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris,
This has been interesting!
We will presume for now that your bamboo is Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens. (made title change for this thread)
These two species have always been difficult to ID.
BTW They are both early to emerge in the spring.

P. viridiglaucescens is also known for it's tasty shoots "having only a slight degree of acridity or "bite" in the raw state.

Re: Bamboo from botanic garden from mediteran/photos (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1276)

Will discuss in above Thread / link.

Mark

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris, how are you and your bamboo?
Do you still think this species is Phyllostachys viridiglaucescens?
I haven't been able to visit this species where I know it is growing during spring season.
Did you take any more pics?
Mark

[vigli]

Hi Mark.
Are You there. Hope you are OK with your Ph. elegans
I didn't visit this forum long time ago.
Do You have information which all species of phyllostachys has hair under the leaves and which bamboo from Phyll. genus has hair on their shoots.
Thanks a lot stay in touch.
Boris

[Mark Meckes]

Hi Boris,
Great to hear from you again!
Just as you posted this I went outside and saw our first P. elegans shoot.

BTW Have you confirmed that your your species is P. viridiglaucescens?
I have not been able to find any of this plant nearby and would much appreciate if you can show more pics.


Do you have information which all species of phyllostachys has hair under the leaves and which bamboo from Phyll. genus has hair on their shoots.
Very good questions! I have started two threads to prepare a list:

Phyllostachys species with hairs on undersides of leaves (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2381)

Phyllostachys species with hairs on culm sheaths (http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2382)

I am at a very busy season but I will do some research when I have time and add to the lists.

As we have been comparing the differences between P. elegans and P. glaucescens...
I checked for hairs on P. elegans and they are difficult to detect on 1+ year old leaves and sometimes sparse or visible only on portion of leaf underside. Will take a closer look at new leaves when they appear

Phyllostachys elegans - hairs on leaf underside
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/medium/PelegAuTX070302-5257.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3837) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=3837&size=big)


Phyllostachys elegans - sparse hairs on sheaths, visible from sunlight shining on them.
A vary faint scattering of hairs, but only on well developed mid sheaths, did not see hairs on early bottom or later much higher sheaths:

http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/data/545/medium/PelegAuTX060309-473.jpg (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2896) View large (http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showphoto.php?photo=2896&size=big)

I will examine more closely this spring and try and take better pics.

Mark